comma before and after 'and' / before 'as' [conjunction]

[Tremt]

Hi guys,

My question is about commas. I don't know if my my commas are placed correctly or if they are too many. This is my example:

On the other hand, a plant can have many leaves, and, as it grows, it will thicken its stem.

My main doubt is about the 3 commas starting from the end. I believe that "as it grows" should be surrounded by commas as I believe that any words that can also be placed at the end of the sentence should be surrounded by commas. For example, if I reorder the words in the last sentence, it'd be:

On the other hand, a plant can have many leaves, and it will thicken its stem as it grows.

However, I'm confused as to whether there are too many commas in the initial example especially because the word "and" ends up being surrounded by commas too by default. Also, is it correct grammar usage to be putting bits of the sentence in commas (that could go at the end of the sentence) to add more emphasis like I did with ",as it grows," interrupting the flow of the sentence?

Can anyone help? Thanks!

 

[Copyright]

Four choices — all correct in my personal view of comma usage ...

On the other hand, a plant can have many leaves, and, as it grows, it will thicken its stem.
On the other hand, a plant can have many leaves and, as it grows, it will thicken its stem.
On the other hand, a plant can have many leaves, and as it grows it will thicken its stem.
On the other hand, a plant can have many leaves and as it grows it will thicken its stem.

You can certainly interrupt the flow of a sentence if it's for a purpose. I like the flow of your last sentence, with "as it grows" at the end, but without knowing more context and what you hope to achieve it's not really possible for me to recommend a particular sentence.

 

[Tremt]

Four choices — all correct in my personal view of comma usage ...

On the other hand, a plant can have many leaves, and, as it grows, it will thicken its stem.
On the other hand, a plant can have many leaves and, as it grows, it will thicken its stem.
On the other hand, a plant can have many leaves, and as it grows it will thicken its stem.
On the other hand, a plant can have many leaves and as it grows it will thicken its stem.

You can certainly interrupt the flow of a sentence if it's for a purpose. I like the flow of your last sentence, with "as it grows" at the end, but without knowing more context and what you hope to achieve it's not really possible for me to recommend a particular sentence.

Thanks!

Can I ask about your second sentence:

On the other hand, a plant can have many leaves and, as it grows, it will thicken its stem.

I thought that a comma needs to go before "and" to separate clauses, hence the reason for my initial example having "and" surrounded with commas. I would have agreed that to the reader's eye, the less commas the better especially if their exclusion doesn't break the reading flow. However, would not "and" in the initial example have to have as a rule a comma before it (and)? I learnt the hard way that to separate 2 independent clauses, "and" has to be preceded by a comma although perhaps the sentence following "and" in the example is not an independent clause or doesn't merit being separate by a comma at "and"? I'm still a bit green in terms of clauses.

In essence, this is what I'm asking with the comma thing in your example provided as one of the 4 options:

Incorrect: On the other hand, a plant can have many leaves and, as it grows, it will thicken its stem.
Correct: On the other hand, a plant can have many leaves, and, as it grows, it will thicken its stem.

This is a bit of a problem that I have with commas as I see myself having a tendency to put too many commas and breaking the reading flow by introducing bits of the sentence that could be placed at the end too. For what is worth, the text I'm writing is about trees and this part of the paragraph is about midway into the paragraph.

Thank you!!

 

[icecreamsoldier]

On the other hand, a plant can have many leaves and, as it grows, it will thicken its stem.
The commas around "as it grows" are separating out the clause. The comma before "and" is optional, as is generally the case.

I personally prefer Copyright's third option as it splits the two main ideas (leaves and stem) without too many extra commas to clutter the sentence:
On the other hand, a plant can have many leaves, and as it grows it will thicken its stem.

 

[Cenzontle]

I thought that a comma needs to go before "and" to separate clauses

I agree with you on this statement, but I sometimes see this "rule" broken in print—sometimes causing hilarious ambiguity.
Enclosing "as it grows" between commas is optional, and in this sentence I don't see any danger of a wrong reading if those commas are omitted.

 

[Tremt]

Great! Thank you all.

On the other hand, a plant can have many leaves and, as it grows, it will thicken its stem.
The commas around "as it grows" are separating out the clause. The comma before "and" is optional, as is generally the case.

I personally prefer Copyright's third option as it splits the two main ideas (leaves and stem) without too many extra commas to clutter the sentence:
On the other hand, a plant can have many leaves, and as it grows it will thicken its stem.

The bold part makes a lot of sense as "it will thicken its stem" has a comma already preceding "it". But what if it were written as:

On the other hand, a plant can have many leaves and it will, as it grows, thicken its stem.

In this case, the clause has been further disrupted. Now we have "it will" following "and" and being interrupted with "as it grows". Wouldn't a comma before "and" be of merit now, so it reads as below?

On the other hand, a plant can have many leaves, and it will, as it grows, thicken its stem.

Sorry for asking so much, at least I hope it helps others that may be wondering this too on clauses. Thanks.

 

[Cenzontle]

I'm a believer in the use of a comma in the construction "[Clause A], and [Clause B]", unless the clauses are very short.
The comma reduces the danger that the noun phrase subject of Clause B will be read as an additional direct object of Clause A.
Here's the type of sentence I'm referring to:
"The insecticide killed many mosquitoes and children were thus protected from malaria."
With no comma after "mosquitoes", there is a brief moment when you are reading that the insecticide killed many mosquitoes and children.

Does this address your question?