comma before and after 'and' / before 'if' [conjunction]

[Tremt]

Hi guys,

Can you help me with the following? This is what I've written:

They went to the park, and, if they needed anything, they'd call John.

I believe the above is correct, but I'm finding a lot of evidence saying that "if" should not be preceded by a comma as a general rule. However, I believe that "if they needed anything" acts as an interruption to the phrase and provides information, thus it should normally be punctuated with a comma before "if".

Lastly, what about the comma before "and"? is it too much? I believe that everything from "and" onwards is an independent clause thus it should be punctuated. However, I've read that a comma before "and" can sometimes be left out even when what follows is an independent clause.

Can you help me?

Thanks!

 

[Kevin Beach]

I'm sure that somebody will be able to cite some rule or other that will answer your question, but one of the things about language change is that what was once a rigid rule passes out of use. That goes for punctuation, including commas, as much as for other aspects of language.

Idiomatically, I'd delete the comma after "park" and leave the other two.

But you could make the whole issue easier by changing the word order: Whenever they went to the park and needed anything, they'd call John.

 

[MuttQuad]

I would write it thusly: They went to the park; and, if they needed anything, they'd call John.

Usually, a phrase such as "if they needed anything" would be set off by commas; and once you have punctuation elsewhere in the sentence the usual comma separating the parts of a compound sentence should become a semicolon.

 

[PaulQ]

Because 'and' is a coordinating conjunction, it is simple to turn your example into two sentence: "They went to the park. If they needed anything, they'd call John.", By putting the 'and' back, we see that the only comma required is:They went to the park and if they needed anything, they'd call John.

 

[Tremt]

Excellent, than you very much guys!

I find myself interrupting sentences alot with the whole "if xxxx xxxxx", thus, I am going to certainly put your advice to use. However, can I ask if my original example is correct and/or idiomatic/non-idiomatic? Mostly because I like to put variety in my writing and thus would like to insert the sort of structure used in my original example too. For some reason I like to interrupt my sentences!

Thank you so much

 

[PaulQ]

Minus the commas around 'and', it is correct.

 

[MuttQuad]

Because 'and' is a coordinating conjunction, it is simple to turn your example into two sentence: "They went to the park. If they needed anything, they'd call John.", By putting the 'and' back, we see that the only comma required is:They went to the park and if they needed anything, they'd call John.

Perhaps this is a BrE vs AmE issue, Paul; but there must be a comma after the first "and." It is a conjunction separating two parts of a compound sentence -- each of which has its own subject and predicate -- and, therefore, must be separated by a comma or semicolon. When I was in grammar school, that was considered a very basic matter.

 

[PaulQ]

It is a coordinating conjunction and requires no comma - however, as you say, AE and BE grammars may differ.

"I took him out the back and shot him." (BE)

 

[MuttQuad]

That's an entirely different case. Two actions with only one subject; no comma required. But a compound sentence formed of two complete (each with its own subject and verb, even if the subject is the same) independent sentences, does require a comma or semicolon where they are conjoined, as it would be had you written, "I took him out the back, and I shot him."