comma before 'and' after 'or' [conjunction]: mine or his and remember

[Tremt]

I am aware that if you use "and" a second time, you have to use a comma but I am unsure as to whether using "and" after "or" still calls for using a comma. Example:

- You can use my car or his car and remember to dry safely.

I am 90% sure that I comma should precede "and" in this case but I find myself using "and" after "or" in quite a few circumstances so I am not sure what the rule of thumb should be. See the next example:

- Use X or Y and also Z.

Since in this next example Z is still part of the list of objects, would skipping the comma preceding "and" be correct here? I am aware my first example breaks the listing of objects so a comma is quite possibly guaranteed here but what about the 2nd example where the object after "and" is still part of the list?

Thanks!!

 

[xqby]

I think if you could consider the two things linked by "and" to function as a single item in the list or alternatives, then you don't need a comma. You do need one if they're being considered discretely, though.
"You can borrow my suit, or his pants and jacket." - you have the choice between my suit as a unit, or his pants and jacket as a unit
"You can borrow my suit or his suit, and your dad's tie." - you have the choice between our two suits; you can borrow your dad's tie no matter which you choose.

 

[Tremt]

I think if you could consider the two things linked by "and" to function as a single item in the list or alternatives, then you don't need a comma. You do need one if they're being considered discretely, though.
"You can borrow my suit, or his pants and jacket." - you have the choice between my suit as a unit, or his pants and jacket as a unit
"You can borrow my suit or his suit, and your dad's tie." - you have the choice between our two suits; you can borrow your dad's tie no matter which you choose

I see. So a comma must be inserted regardless of where the object following "and" belongs to the list or not?

 

[xqby]

I don't understand what you're asking, could you please elaborate?

 

[neal41]

After having educated myself by reading the relevant section of the Oxford English Grammar by Sidney Greenbaum I will answer your questions.

If two main clauses are connected by a coordinating conjunction like 'and' or 'or', a separating comma is usually placed before the conjunction. Thus your first sentence should have a comma. The comma is sometimes omitted, especially if the clauses are short.

Relative to your second question, Greenbaum says that there are two styles, the A, B and C style (no comma after B) and the A, B, and C style (a comma after B). The A, B, and C style is the general American convention except that the A, B and C style is usual in American journalism. The A, B and C style is the general British convention.

 

[Tremt]

I don't understand what you're asking, could you please elaborate?

Yep, thanks for your reply by the way. I understood what you meant and in the examples you provided, you inserted a comma in all of them. However, I would like to know if there would be any instance in which not using a comma would be correct when using "and" after "or". For example:

- Use X or Y and also Z.

Would the above example with no comma be correct, or would it be:

- Use X or Y, and also Z.

I am merely going by memory as I seem to have read that not using a comma in such an instance (a list having "or" followed by "and") would still be correct. Just wanting to confirm that. Thanks again!

 

[neal41]

After having submitted my previous post, I realized that I had not read the original post carefully. Let me try again.

Based on the Greenbaum rule your first sentence needs a comma before 'and' because there are 2 clauses. Since they are short, you could omit the comma. I don't think the presence of 'or' is relevant.

In the case of the second sentence you could argue that you are talking about combinations of 2 things, not 3 things and thus no comma is needed. (X or Y) and Z. "Buy apples or oranges and a watermelon." By this reasoning you would not put a comma in xqby's sentences. On the other hand it is acceptable to use a comma in the written language or a pause in the spoken language if clarity is improved by doing so.

Actually, unless you are constrained by the style book of some big organization like, for example, the New York Times, you can probably do whatever you feel is best.

 

[Tremt]

After having educated myself by reading the relevant section of the Oxford English Grammar by Sidney Greenbaum I will answer your questions.

If two main clauses are connected by a coordinating conjunction like 'and' or 'or', a separating comma is usually placed before the conjunction. Thus your first sentence should have a comma. The comma is sometimes omitted, especially if the clauses are short.

Relative to your second question, Greenbaum says that there are two styles, the A, B and C style (no comma after B) and the A, B, and C style (a comma after B). The A, B, and C style is the general American convention except that the A, B and C style is usual in American journalism. The A, B and C style is the general British convention.

Thanks for your reply Neal. I tried to document myself prior to posting but it made me even more confused as English is not my native language (mostly because I am still trying to learn what clauses and independent clauses are).

I see what you mean. So basically a comma is guaranteed when there are more than 2 objects (e.g. A, B, and/or C), regardless or whether the conjunction is "and" or "or", and even if the phrase is a listing of the objects? (Use X, Y, or/and Z).

The only exception to using a comma with conjunctions would be if the list is very short and only includes the names of the objects/persons such as (please confirm if I am assuming this correctly):

- You can go with Adam and Peter or John.

Sorry to keep asking questions, just wanting to double check as I am trying to learn from other sources but I get questions which are not made worse the more I read without asking for feedback. Many thanks!!

 

[xqby]

I wouldn't use the comma after "or" if one of the items were multiple things considered a single option in the list of alternatives.
"You can order toast, croissants, or fruit." - 3 options, You can order X, Y, or Z.
"You can order toast or biscuits and gravy." - 2 options, You can order X or Y. You can't order biscuits or gravy by themselves.
"You can order toast, croissants, or biscuits and gravy." - 3 options, You can order X, Y, or Z.

 

[Tremt]

After having submitted my previous post, I realized that I had not read the original post carefully. Let me try again.

Based on the Greenbaum rule your first sentence needs a comma before 'and' because there are 2 clauses. Since they are short, you could omit the comma. I don't think the presence of 'or' is relevant.

In the case of the second sentence you could argue that you are talking about combinations of 2 things, not 3 things and thus no comma is needed. (X or Y) and Z. "Buy apples or oranges and a watermelon." By this reasoning you would not put a comma in xqby's sentences. On the other hand it is acceptable to use a comma in the written language or a pause in the spoken language if clarity is improved by doing so.

Actually, unless you are constrained by the style book of some big organization like, for example, the New York Times, you can probably do whatever you feel is best.

Thanks for revising your reply. I think I have got what you are saying. My last question would thus be:

Unless you are clearly breaking a grammatical rule, can the use of commas be left to my own discretion and use commas whenever I feel that it would benefit the reader's reading flow?

I have read that one should be careful when inserting commas because a pause in reading when reading it out loud doesn't necessarily imply the insertion of a comma. However, I understand that, at times, using a comma is best suited to help the reader have a break from the content.

 

[Tremt]

I wouldn't use the comma after "or" if one of the items were multiple things considered a single option in the list of alternatives.
"You can order toast, croissants, or fruit." - 3 options, You can order X, Y, or Z.
"You can order toast or biscuits and gravy." - 2 options, You can order X or Y. You can't order biscuits or gravy by themselves.
"You can order toast, croissants, or biscuits and gravy." - 3 options, You can order X, Y, or Z.

Great! Got what you mean. Thanks again xqby