comma before 'and' [compound predicate]: laid out our..., and began

[EStjarn]

Here's from a Purdue Online Writing Lab article on comma usage, "Extended Rules for Using Commas":

13. Don't put a comma between the two verbs or verb phrases in a compound predicate.

INCORRECT: We laid out our music and snacks, and began to study.
INCORRECT: I turned the corner, and ran smack into a patrol car.

1) Do you feel a comma is really incorrect in the first sentence?

2) I agree that no comma is needed in the second sentence. But what if it were longer, for example,

I turned the corner of Fifth Avenue in a state of frenzy I have not experienced since, and ran smack into a patrol car.

would you say it is still incorrect to put a comma between the verbs?

 

[entangledbank]

That whole page of advice is rubbish, starting with point 1, 'Use commas to separate independent clauses', and not wanting to waste my time reading further. Put commas there if you want, or leave them out if you want. It makes a difference of intonation, perhaps of focus, perhaps adds a pause. There can be all sorts of reasons for choices.

 

[EStjarn]

Thank you, entangledbank. What a relief!

The Purdue OWL page is used here as an example of online advice given on this particular issue (they all seem to say the same). As I could not find any support for the opinion you express (which is also mine), that a comma is optional in this case, I thought I should ask.

 

[Parla]

I'm with the Writing Lab on this one. No commas in these sentences.

 

[lucas-sp]

I don't know... Comma use is a matter of style, so the "rules" are always (more or less) flexible. You can certainly make bad choices about commas, but these commas seem very up-in-the-air to me.

We laid out our music and snacks and began to study. certainly it's okay; it's a bit breathless for my taste
We laid out our music and snacks, and began to study. here, the comma implies a slight pause and thus a greater contrast - or maybe even a greater pause before the people begin studying.

I turned the corner of Fifth Avenue in a state of frenzy I have not experienced since and ran smack into a patrol car. the scene goes by very quickly
I turned the corner of Fifth Avenue in a state of frenzy I have not experienced since, and ran smack into a patrol car. same thing: slight pause, greater contrast, more slapstick (aaaaaand... BAM!)

It seems to me like all these stylistic choices are more or less defensible.

 

[EStjarn]

Thank you, Parla.

Does your opinion also include the sentence I made up? Or would you consider using a comma in that case?

(I've noticed Purdue OWL is listed as a resource in the English Only sticky thread, Resources, links and frequently discussed topics (FAQ).)

 

[JustKate]

I agree with both Parla and OWL - I don't think commas are needed in those sentences either. I wouldn't go so far as to say there's a rule, but a good guideline is "Don't use a comma for no reason," and what reason can there be for those commas? Lucas' example seems more defensible to me because it is a longer and more complicated sentence, and carefully placed commas can help readers correctly interpret longer sentences. (Edit: I just noticed that sentence was actually written by EStjarn. Sorry!)

I really think the guideline about not using commas to separate verb phrases is a pretty good one. That should be the default setting, so to speak. Exceptions should be just that - exceptions.

 

[EStjarn]

Thank you, lucas-sp and JustKate. Your replies are much appreciated!

I have checked the resources regarding punctuation in the sticky thread (see link above). Purdue OWL is the only source that addresses this question directly. Of the others, US Government Printing Office comes closest to touching upon it:

The comma is used — [...] before the conjunction in a compound sentence containing two or more independent clauses, each of which could have been written as a simple sentence. Fish, mollusks, and crustaceans were plentiful in the lakes, and turtles frequented the shores. The boy went home alone, and his sister remained with the crowd.

This advice seems to imply that it would be incorrect to put a comma between verbs in a sentence with a compound predicate, since such a senctence could not be written as two or more simple sentences, as there would always be a shortage of subjects.

However, I find the replies in this thread indicate that we may indeed do so, whether in certain cases (#7) or as a stylistic choice (#2, #5).

 

[Keith Bradford]

Commas are pauses. There are no "rules" telling you where to pause in your speech, and there are likewise no firm rules on commas in writing. Especially not those stated in #1.

There is a good book on the subject, however: Lynne Truss, Eats shoots and leaves, Profile Books, 2003.

 

[EStjarn]

Thank you, Keith.

This is how Wikipedia presents the book:

Eats, Shoots & Leaves: The Zero Tolerance Approach to Punctuation is a non-fiction book written by Lynne Truss, the former host of BBC Radio 4's Cutting a Dash programme. In the book, published in 2003, Truss bemoans the state of punctuation in the United Kingdom and the United States and describes how rules are being relaxed in today's society. Her goal is to remind readers of the importance of punctuation in the English language by mixing humour and instruction.

I had a look at it, but could find nothing on the particulars discussed in this thread. However, because it is tangent to the discussion, I will quote the following from its chapter on comma use, "That'll Do, Comma":

Aren’t there rules for the comma, just as there are rules for the apostrophe? Well, yes; but you will be entertained to discover that there is a significant complication in the case of the comma. More than any other mark, the comma draws our attention to the mixed origins of modern punctuation, and its consequent mingling of two quite distinct functions:

1 To illuminate the grammar of a sentence
2 To point up – rather in the manner of musical notation – such literary qualities as rhythm, direction, pitch, tone and flow

This is why grown men have knock-down fights over the comma in editorial offices: because these two roles of punctuation sometimes collide head-on – indeed, where the comma is concerned, they do it all the time.

 

[Parla]

Thank you, Parla.

Does your opinion also include the sentence I made up? Or would you consider using a comma in that case?

Actually, it technically shouldn't have a comma. Looking back at it: If I were editing it, I think I'd leave the comma and insert a repeat of the subject: an "I" before "ran".

 

[EStjarn]

Thank you very much!

I happened upon a previous thread on this topic, except the example sentence has 'but' instead of 'and':

The Chicago Manual of Style has a lot of information about commas, but has no information about using them with 'but' to show a contrast.

Also, I noticed the following on the Q&A section of The Chicago Manual of Style Online:

Q. Is it correct or incorrect to put a comma before the “and” in the following sentence: “The Department of Justice has taken on the role of coordinating agencies’ activities, and has undertaken several new initiatives related to dealing with criminals.” I think it’s correct because the second clause—although not an independent clause, strictly speaking—is so long (and the subject is implied). The comma seems to help the reader get through the sentence. Many thanks.

A. The comma isn’t necessary, but if you want to indicate a pause, add it anyway. Please see CMOS 6.16: “The comma, aside from its technical uses in mathematical, bibliographical, and other contexts, indicates the smallest break in sentence structure. Especially in spoken contexts, it usually denotes a slight pause. Effective use of the comma involves good judgment, with ease of reading the end in view.”

 

[lucas-sp]

That answer from CMS is exactly what I would say.

I do a lot of academic editing, and my sense is that, as a reader, I love commas simply because they break up the main parts of the sentence visually on the page. They show me where the main clauses or phrases begin and end, before I've even begun to puzzle through the actual words used in the sentence. I find this extremely helpful, and it just goes to show that commas can contribute to the "ease of reading" in many, many different ways.