comma before 'and' in list [serial, Oxford, Harvard] : I like apples, pears<,> and oranges.

A

Alxmrphi

Senior Member
NW England
UK English
If someone is giving a list of something like.......

I like apples, and oranges, and pears.

The first "and" is incorrect, right?
I always thought that because of the comma, there is no and, only with the last noun, so it should be

I like apples, oranges, and pears.

This is correct, isn't it, it is quite redundant to keep repeating and, and is incorrect 'proper' English, isn't it?
 
    • Hi Alex,
    Before I go hunting for grammar book 'rules' about lists, it's worth mentioning that whatever 'rules' may or may not say on the topic of potentially redundants "ands", there will be times when a writer's stylistic intentions, including a need for emphasis, dictate the use of more than one "and" in a list.


    Edit:     I've now checked with H.W. Fowler, who says that the combination of 'and' with a comma may be logically unnecessary, but
    useful. He mentions no rule.

    Type (b) can be very shortly disposed of. It differs in that the conjunction (and, or, nor, &c.) is expressed every time, instead of being represented except in the last place by a comma. It is logically quite unnecessary, but rhetorically quite allowable, to use commas as well as conjunctions. ... In the type sentence, which contains two enumerations, it would be legitimate to use commas as well as ands with one set and not with the other, if it were desired either to avoid monotony or to give one list special emphasis.
    Click to expand...
    This is the sample sentence he calls (b):

    b. Let us freely drink in the soul of love and beauty and wisdom, from all nature and art and history.
     
    I accept that, I just mean on the value to say it is redundant, is it something like, well I dunno, would it be wrong enough to suggest not to use it and be considered a bad judgement to correct someone who is learning another language, or say it on here etc?
     
    Yes, in most circumstances when making a list you will use commas except before the last item when you will use and.
     
    Yes, cuchu I understand your example, but this is not what I am talking about, not making a list with and, where as you said it can be useful, I mean making a list with "and" AND "commas".

    I agree with Mark though, thanks for confirming!
     
    Stylistic generalities are useful for learners, and it certainly wouldn't hurt to state that we usually do as Mark1978
    suggests. That is a far cry from saying that use of more than a single comma+and in enumeration is wrong, incorrect, or violates a rule of grammar. It is not wrong, or incorrect, or in violation of a rule. It may be unidiomatic in some contexts, and thus should be avoided unless it serves a rhetorical or other stylistic purpose.
     
    There are two generally-accepted styles:
    A, B, C, D and E.
    A, B, C, D, and E. <The comma after D is sometimes referred to as the "Oxford comma" because this style is used by the Oxford University Press.

    That doesn't prevent you from inserting ands here and there if the context requires it.
    Red and yellow and pink and green, orange and purple and blue: I can sing a rainbow ... ... ...
     
    More Fowler, on the combined use of commas and ands: "In the type sentence, which contains two enumerations, it would be legitimate to use commas as well as andswith one set and not with the other, if it were desired either to avoid monotony or to give one list special emphasis."
     
    But in my example I gave in the first post, if I suggested to someone learning English that it's best to take out the "and" before oranges, this isn't wrong of me, is it? (just for future clarification)
     
    Alex_Murphy said:
    But in my example I gave in the first post, if I suggested to someone learning English that it's best to take out the "and" before oranges, this isn't wrong of me, is it? (just for future clarification)
    Click to expand...

    Repeated ands aren't wrong. They tend to happen when people are still thinking about something: "Let's see - I'll have one these, and two of those, and one of these, and three of those, oh, and one of these."

    Fun fact: the "Oxford" comma is also know as the "Harvard" comma.
     
    The exta "ands" are only right when, like you said, you are still thinking. Technically, they aren't right, though. They are only excusable when you pause in between saying something. Kind of like: "I'll have a... uhh... an apple."
     
    In my opinion, the extra "ands" are acceptable if:

    1. You know it is not conventional in usage.

    2. You know the conventional usage and how to structure the sentence using it.

    3. You feel that the extra "ands" are useful for either artistic or expressive effects.

    4. You know that there will be some criticism for the use of the extra "ands", and in spite of that risk you think they are worthwhile...

    Then go ahead and use them.

    Using them out of ignorance is a bad deal; using them with knowledge can be very effective.
     
    In an academic text, do people have an opinion on whether the use of the Oxford comma must be slavishly applied? Sometimes I feel like a sentence needs one and then in another sentence it just feels slavish and a bit pretentious to put one in. Do the editors out there choose a style and stick with it no matter what in a given text?
     
    Kotuku33, this is something that many members feel quite passionate about :), so I've merged your question with one of the earlier threads on this topic. I hope some of your questions are answered in this thread, but if not, you're welcome to add to it.

    JustKate
    English Only moderator
     
    <This thread has been merged with an earlier one.>

    Can someone explain to me when you do and do not put a comma before "and" when listing. Here is an example: grapes, oranges, apples, and bananas.
     
    Last edited by a moderator:
    This is a style choice known as a "serial comma". Both styles are correct. I usually use: grapes, oranges, apples and bananas.
     
    <This thread has been merged with an earlier one.>

    A, B, and C / A, B and C

    Which one is correct?
     
    Last edited by a moderator:
    ... but may mean different things or should be used in different contexts.
     
    It's the "Oxford Comma" problem. In general I prefer the final comma, but my observation has been that in modern editing commas are being done away with as much as possible. If you find that the final comma adds clarity, then use it. If you find it is awkward and unnecessary, then don't use it.
     
    New question added to previous thread.
    Cagey, moderator

    Hello,

    is there any difference concerning the use of coma in the following sentences:

    Quizzes on content, vocabulary, grammar and writing

    Evaluation of content, reading, listening, grammar, and vocabulary.

    Context: enumeration. Are the both sentences correct? Or should there be also a coma before the word "and" in the first sentence?

    Thank you.
     
    Last edited by a moderator:
    lingvoforum said:
    Thank you, I have already read it but it is not clear for me. I really do not understand it and do not know which one use.
    Click to expand...
    I would say that in your example you can probably do it either way, with or without the comma. If it were my sentence, I'd omit it. :)
     
    <Added to this thread. Nat>

    1. My three sons are called, John, Paul, and Dave.

    2. My three sons are called John, Paul and Dave.

    I think that the first sentence is correct because there is a pause between John and Paul so I think there should also be a pause between Paul and Dave.

    Which sentence is grammatically correct?
     
    Last edited:
    Both are correct. The comma before and is the Oxford comma or the serial comma. See earlier discussion above.
     
    Yes, sorry, didn't notice that stray comma. :oops: Thank you Loob for noticing everything! :)
     
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