communautarisme

zyxyoo

Member
UK, English/Welsh
Hi!
Does anybody have a translation for the French word 'communautarisme'?

Thanks

Moderator note: multiple threads merged to create this one.
 
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  • Rob625

    Senior Member
    English - England
    My Collins C21 English Dictionoary lists Communautaire (italicized) as meaning supporting the principles of the European Community (now EU).

    Then we also have a word "communalism", which is distinct from "communism".
     

    fetchezlavache

    Senior Member
    france
    communautarisme deals with communities, racial or sexual for instance. it is the attitude that some of them have, to 'ghetto' themselves instead of trying to get integrated and mingled with the rest of society...

    for instance, je peux dire que l'apparition de 'pink tv', la nouvelle chaîne télé gay, me déplaît un peu car elle ne fait qu'accentuer le communautarisme homosexuel. je préfèrerais que les télés 'hétéros' fassent moins de chichis et incluent les homos dans leurs programmes comme des gens normaux.
     

    roger077

    Member
    USA English
    fetchezlavache: Would clannishness be appropriate?
    clannishness
    Of or pertaining to a clan; closely united, like a clan; disposed to associate only
    with one's clan or clique; actuated by the traditions, prejudices, habits, etc., of a clan.
    A more extreme form: separationist.
    A less extreme form: identification with one's group (does not imply associating only with members of one's group)
    A related usage: community (the deaf community, the intellectual community, the gay & lesbian community)
     

    Focalist

    Senior Member
    European Union, English
    This quotation, I think, gives some idea of the meaning while at the same time underlining the fact that there is no straightforward English equivalent!
    ... a strong tradition of tolerance and respect has led to the full acceptance of all kinds of religious practices. The state does not interfere as long as law and order do not come under threat. However, this tends to create a situation where 'community-ism' ('communautarisme' as it is called in France) reigns, and ghettos can develop.
    F
     

    quehuong

    Senior Member
    Vietnam, Vietnamese
    I've just learned a very big word today. Thanks for the explanations!!!

    I wonder when communautarism will enter the mainstream English.

    fechezlavache,

    I had a good laugh.:D
     

    Agnès E.

    Senior Member
    France, French
    C'est le fait de se sentir solidaire non d'une nation, d'un pays, mais d'un aspect personnel qui crée des groupes à l'intérieur même de cette nation et la scinde pour des raisons autres que nationales.
    Par exemple :
    Les communautarismes religieux (on ne se définit plus comme Français mais comme catholique, protestant, musulman, juif, etc.).
    Les communautarismes régionaux (on ne se définit plus comme Français mais comme Breton, Provençal ou Basque).
    Les communautarismes sexuels (on ne se définit plus comme Français mais comme hétérosexuel, homosexuel ou bisexuel).
    Ce qui amène des dissentions au sein d'un pays et nuit à sa cohésion.
     

    Malou

    Senior Member
    ENGLAND/ENGLISH
    can somebody give me a transaltiion for 'communautarism' -- the french refer to it pejoratively as 'communautarisme a l'anglo-saxon' ..
     

    Anne345

    Senior Member
    France
    communautarisme = repli communautaire (français, breton, musulman, chrétien...) qui considére la communauté plus importante que l'individu, qui doit se conformer à la communauté.
    Le communautarisme à l'anglo-saxonne n'est pas une formulation péjorative. Il s'agit seulement de quelque chose dont nous ne voulons pas et que l'on voit couramment en Grande Bretagne et qui se manifeste de façon extérieure par un policier avec un turban ou une institutrice voilée.
     

    Malou

    Senior Member
    ENGLAND/ENGLISH
    Merci Anne ,j'accepte la definition [sans vouloir entrer dans un debat la-dessus ! ]comment vous le traduirez donc? multiculturalism??
     

    Agnès E.

    Senior Member
    France, French
    This idea does not really exist in France. We don't use to classify people according to their religions, sexuality or tastes (although this trend is slowly appearing) which we think must remain in the private circle. Communautarisme means that people classify themselves according to some private attributes instead of feeling that they belong to a whole.
    For instance: I am French, born in Provence and I am protestant.
    Nevertheless, I place my belonging to France as my first attribute. I define myself as French first, not as a protestant woman.
    Therefore, I see other French people not as catholics, jews or muslims, but as French. If I would apply the notion of communautarism, I would feel inclined to not feel I am belonging to the same group as those people, what would lead to some form of denial of our common roots.


    My suggestion: community withdrawal

    Multiculturalim ne convient pas, car il s'agit de la forme positive (et souhaitable ! :)) de l'acceptation de toutes les différences, alors que le communautarisme est une forme extrême et négative dont les conséquences ne vont pas vers la compréhension mutuelle, mais le repli.
     
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    Kelly B

    Senior Member
    USA English
    Sectarianism comes to mind, although it usually refers to prejudice against other sects rather than to an expression of one's own.
     

    shenley

    Member
    England living in France
    A word occurring frequently in English-language political journalism in India is "communalism". I think this means more or less the same as "communautarisme" in French.
     

    Susan Grodsky

    Member
    English, USA
    Que veux dire cet mot? Dans une phrase:

    oui réagissons par le communautarisme à la violence et à la barbarie!

    Peut-etre, "Yes, respond to a community of violence and barbarism?"

    Merci en avance.
     

    texasweed

    Banned
    French-born/US English
    communautarism (in English) legitimates its actions through limited religious & cultural traditions. Its adepts shurn cultural variety and live in the past, rejecting evolution and change.

    It's opposite is multiculturalism.

    In this instance, they wish to react to violence and barbarism THEIR way, not necessarily going with the law or currently accepted means.
     

    texasweed

    Banned
    French-born/US English
    Sorry; spelling error : Its opposite is multiculturalism.

    No, there is no sarcasm here, just cultural background and faith in "old ways". Whatever our perception of things, some people see things their way and reject any new means of dealing with events.

    Believe it or not, there are still some sects that are strongly convinced no man ever stepped on the moon, that the story was entirely made up, as going to the moon implies passing through heaven first... long story out of this topic ! Yet it shows the extent of communautarism's way of thinking.
     

    vincent38

    New Member
    FRANCE
    Bonjour à tous,

    Je n'ai pas réussi à trouver de traduction ou de périphrase (autre que "behaviour of people belongging to a community" ?!) signifiant "Communautarisme", dans son sens large.
    Quelqu'un aurait-il une idée ?

    Merci

    Vincent
     

    Ludito

    Senior Member
    French, Belgium
    Hi,

    I still find it difficult to translate this 'communautarisme' word into English.
    Straight away I thought of 'communautarism' but I am not sure this word exists. However, I found a topic in which texasweed, native of (American) English, suggested it.
    Communautarism [...]

    I also found this translation (community withdrawal) from Agnès E. which I found good too, but yet, I still hesitate.

    Community withdrawal [...] (Agnès E.)

    Here is the (short) sentence I want to translate:


    Le cours de "diversité culturelle" traite de l'individualisme et du communautarisme.

    Thanks
     
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    barfoo

    New Member
    Canada, English
    Better late than never....

    I think "communalism" might be closer; it is widely used in South Asia, and in the social sciences. Its meaning is probably the closest (from the analyses offered by the Francophones here).
     

    KatishaKat

    Senior Member
    India English, Hindi
    The word in English is COMMUNITARIANISM and not communautarism. That is a "Francissisme".
    i cannot post urls as a junior member. But you can check the wiki article on it when you google the word.
    it explains the concept of
    COMMUNITARIANISM which is essentially what communautarisme is in French.
     

    RuK

    Senior Member
    English/lives France
    communitarianism is not a frequently used word in English and if I were to read it I wouldn't neccessarily understand it right off. I think sectarianism is the only option - or "sectarian tendencies". This only works in some cases though.
     
    The word in English is COMMUNITARIANISM and not communautarism. That is a "Francissisme".
    i cannot post urls as a junior member. But you can check the wiki article on it when you google the word.
    it explains the concept of
    COMMUNITARIANISM which is essentially what communautarisme is in French.
    I checked out the wiki article because I was surprised to see communitarianism suggested as a translation for communautarisme. And despite the fact that it is linked as an equivalent term on wikipedia, the two terms are clearly not equivalent. The French term, as made clear in this thread, carries with it much more negative baggage. It seems to connote only that which is often inappropriately attributed to the political philosophy of communitarianism. I don't think that this is a good translation at all.
     

    Dodus

    Member
    France, French
    Hi everybody!

    I'd like to find a translation for the French word "communautarisme" which means the will not to get integrated in society but to stay and live with the people of the same nationality, origins or even sex.

    What about "clannishness"?

    Thanks! :)

    (I'm actually studying an article about Barack Obama and a trend the journalist calls "the new Black nativism..")
     

    stephanfowler

    New Member
    English
    "Communautarism" is usually a semi-equivalent to "multiculturalism" - the difference being that the latter has the supposed positive connotation of "celebrating diversity", whereas the former definitely has a pejorative connotation, of clannishness etcetera as suggested above.

    Note that the terns are converging, perhaps. The Anglo world increasingly describes multicultural policies as having failed, whereas French political debate increasingly capitulates to communautarist arguments.
     

    allezallez

    Senior Member
    Am. English
    C'etait utilisé dans le contexte suivante:

    Sihem Habchi, la présidente du mouvement "Ni putes, ni soumises" lance un appel pour la laïcité et la mixité face à la montée des communautarismes et des oppressions contre les femmes.

    C'est dur pour moi dans ce cas de trouver une definition proche. Mes tentatives: conventions, cultural norms....Je ne sais pas! :)
     

    allezallez

    Senior Member
    Am. English
    [...]

    J'ai lu l'ancien fil, et je ne pense bien que "clannishness" est le meilleur choix... Je suis pret a utiliser le mot "marginalisation". Apres tous, quand on se separe, est-ce que c'est le meme chose q'une marginalisation? Oui? Non? Cést encore difficile de savoir les cotes de ce mot communautarisme.

    ok, marginalisation c'est pas le meilleur choix - en effet, c'est presque une blague pour les personnes les plus liberals. J'ai trouvé des autres infos sur cette ideologie, et communautarisme a beaucoup des cotes différents, et traductions indépendants, qui sont plus liée a votre ideologie plus que rien d'autre. Au meme temps, je suis encore intéressé par autres explications/traductions.

    Merci merci! Enfin, je suis content avec "societal separation" ou meme "partial sectarianism", les deux sont assez proche. J'ai déja pensée du sectarianism, mais tout seule, le mot c'est un peu trop fort.
     
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    Kayashka

    Senior Member
    Français
    Hi everyone,

    A question for the anglophones. If I used "communalism" to translate communautarisme, would I make myself understood, or would people think I want to go live in the Mountains with a bunch of hippies?
    Thanks!
     

    astrotdog

    Member
    English - Californian
    I have never encountered the word "communautarisme" in English.

    I think a better translation would be "chauvinism," which has a different shade of meaning than the french cognate, as shown below:

    (from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chauvinism )

    Chauvinism, in its original and primary meaning, is an exaggerated, bellicose patriotism and a blind belief in national superiority and glory. [1] By extension it has come to include an extreme and unreasoning partisanship on behalf of any group to which one belongs, especially when the partisanship includes malice and hatred towards a rival group.
     

    Kayashka

    Senior Member
    Français
    Interesting... So for example, if I wanted to say in English: "Alors qu'en France on prône l'intégration, en Angleterre, le communautarisme est tout à fait accepté." it would be allright to use chauvinism?
     

    astrotdog

    Member
    English - Californian
    From the context, communautarisme does not have the negative context of chauvinism.

    Therefore, I would suggest, "While France advocates integration, in England, multiculturalism (or cultural pluralism) is completely acceptable."
     

    Kayashka

    Senior Member
    Français
    En français, communautarisme est toujours négatif. De plus, nous avons le terme multiculturalisme en français, ce qui nous permet de l'utiliser à souhait :)
    Lorsque l'on oppose intégration à communautarisme, c'est que l'on critique un système où les communautés vivent côte-à-côte, et non pas ensemble. C'est très visible au Royaume-Uni. Je ne veux pas pour autant dire que la France est un modèle d'intégration...
    Maintenant que le contexte est explicité -crois-tu que "chauvinism" conviendrait?
    Merci!
     

    astrotdog

    Member
    English - Californian
    Ok! Dans ce contexte, enfin de garder la connotation négative et pour être parallel avec le mot 'integration,' je suggère:

    While France advocates integration, England finds cultural separatism to be perfectly acceptable.
     

    Keith Bradford

    Senior Member
    English (Midlands UK)
    I worked in the race relations industry in England for fifteen years and never heard of the words communalism or communitarianism until reading this thread tonight.

    It seems to represent what I would have described in the 1980s as separatism, ethnic separatism or (in everyday English) clannishness. Separate development is what the South Africans used to call it (apartheid in Afrikaans) but I think that goes beyond an idea to become a set of political and social actions.

    I'm not at all sure that its opposite is multiculturalism but perhaps integration? I would certainly not try to encourage the use of the words communalism or communitarianism in modern English -- far too similar to others in form not to produce confusion.
     

    astrotdog

    Member
    English - Californian
    "Ethnic separatism" seems best.
    Ethnic background is probably the largest determinant of cultural differences in the UK.
     

    Wodwo

    Senior Member
    UK English
    I worked in the race relations industry in England for fifteen years and never heard of the words communalism or communitarianism until reading this thread tonight.

    It seems to represent what I would have described in the 1980s as separatism, ethnic separatism or (in everyday English) clannishness. Separate development is what the South Africans used to call it (apartheid in Afrikaans) but I think that goes beyond an idea to become a set of political and social actions.

    I'm not at all sure that its opposite is multiculturalism but perhaps integration? I would certainly not try to encourage the use of the words communalism or communitarianism in modern English -- far too similar to others in form not to produce confusion.
    "Communalism" and the idea of "communal violence" are well-established in English usage and beyond being affected by anyone's encouragement or lack of it. I am about to use "communalism" as a translation for "communautarism" and I'm grateful to this thread for reminding me of the word that was on the tip of my tongue...

    That said, it's true that the race relations industry, for example, doesn't talk of "communalism" in the UK. The equivalent manifestation here would have been "Sectarianism" in Northern Ireland. Contrary to what seems sometimes to be assumed in France, I don't think we really have that much "communautarisme" in the UK. Which is not to say that the society isn't fragmented or that people don't identify with different groups, because they do, but the fault lines are too many and various to fall into simple "communalism".
     

    Amorepace

    New Member
    English
    How about "culturocentrism"? That might keep the heavy negative connotation of ethnic and racial groups only sticking between themselves
     

    lorenzogranada

    Senior Member
    English - mid-Atlantic
    This word "communautarisme" has been appearing more and more often in the press (and I am writing in 2014, ten years after the other postings on the subject were made) with relation to the current rows in France over sexual preferences, ethnic groups, religions and so on.

    One recent article deplored the creation of "la France des communautarismes", for example. I looked the term up on Wikipedia in French which said that it originally came from US sociological lingo. The English Wikipedia mentioned "minority groups", which I find closer to the current concept than communities, which is an innocuous and vague term in English.

    Since the real bone of contention is the growing allegiance of the previously patriotic French people to some particular interest, I would say that the term can only be translated by a phrase such as

    "the breaking up of the nation into minority groups"
    or
    "the rise of minority group interests above the goals of La République"
    or even
    "the Balkanization of France into clashing minority groups".

    None of this may be acceptable to translators, but at least it may help understand what the French media is trying to say!
     

    Wodwo

    Senior Member
    UK English
    None of this may be acceptable to translators, but at least it may help understand what the French media is trying to say!
    On the contrary, "minority interests" is an a term very well adapted to many contexts of "communautarisme" and precisely the kind of thing that is acceptable to translators in my view. Speaking as one. So thanks for that.
     

    lorenzogranada

    Senior Member
    English - mid-Atlantic
    The French have always been so (rightly) proud of everyone just being a citoyen of the Republic, and now they're forced to accept people having other "particularist" loyalties. Hence the underlying bitterness in this use of "communautarisme".
     

    orlando09

    Senior Member
    English (England)
    communautarism (in English) legitimates its actions through limited religious & cultural traditions. Its adepts shurn cultural variety and live in the past, rejecting evolution and change.

    It's opposite is multiculturalism.

    In this instance, they wish to react to violence and barbarism THEIR way, not necessarily going with the law or currently accepted means.
    I don't agree it's opposite is multiculturalism. "Multiculturalism" is the idea that immigrants to a country should not be obliged/encouraged to take on all the habits and culture of the home country but it's fine for different cultures to live side by side. Opponents of it would argue that multiculturalism leads to something like "communautarisme" (ie. people not integrating, and keeping to others with the same culture). I think 'sectarianism' isn't bad, but I agree I can't think of one perfect term that means exactly the same thing as the French.
     

    Wodwo

    Senior Member
    UK English
    I don't agree it's opposite is multiculturalism. "Multiculturalism" is the idea that immigrants to a country should not be obliged/encouraged to take on all the habits and culture of the home country but it's fine for different cultures to live side by side. Opponents of it would argue that multiculturalism leads to something like "communautarisme" (ie. people not integrating, and keeping to others with the same culture). I think 'sectarianism' isn't bad, but I agree I can't think of one perfect term that means exactly the same thing as the French.
    Whether the one leads to the other in practice is debatable, but as bits of language the two necessarily have very different meanings. Something that is "multi" can't, by definition, apply to a homogeneous group. It refers to the functioning of a society that consists of people with diverse identities. The focus is on the whole as the sum of its parts.

    Conversely, "communautarisme" is about one or more individual, fairly homogeneous groups turning inwards and focusing on themselves and their own interests. The focus is on the attitude of a faction.
     
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