conditional sentences

Whodunit

Whodunit

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I think I know how to form "realis conditional clauses" in Arabic (If you help me today, I will help you tomorrow. ~ اذا تساعدني اليوم، أساعدك غدا), but I'm not sure about the potentialis and irrealis. How would you translate the following sentences into Arabic?

I would read the book, if you gave it to me.
If you gave me the book, I would read it.

I would have read book, if you had given it to me.
If you had given me the book, I would have read it.

Furthermore, I would like to know when you have to add a "لـ" (la-) to the following sentence. Is there a rule when to put it? Example:

.لو أعطيني الكتاب، لقرأته

:) .شكرا جزيلا
 
    • Well Daniel, this is not a very easy question, but I'll try to help you as much as I can.
    I'll try to translate, though I'm not very sure about what I'm putting here.
    As for the grammatical rule, I'll copy it from my school grammar book :)


    If you help me today, I will help you tomorrow.
    ~ اذا تساعدني اليوم، أساعدك غدا
    إن تساعدنى اليوم، أساعدك غدًا
    إذا ساعدتنى اليوم، سأساعدك غدًا

    I'm not sure about the potentialis and irrealis (I don't even know what these are :eek:).

    I would read the book, if you gave it to me.
    قد أقرأ الكتاب إذا أعطيتنى إياه

    If you gave me the book, I would read it.
    إذا أعطيتنى الكتاب قد أقرأه

    I would have read book, if you had given it to me.
    كان من الممكن أن أقرأ الكتاب إذا كنت قد أعطيتنى إياه

    If you had given me the book, I would have read it.
    لو كنت أعطيتنى الكتاب لكنت قرأتـُه

    Furthermore, I would like to know when you have to add a "لـ" (la-) to the following sentence. Is there a rule when to put it? Example:

    .لو أعطينتي الكتاب، لقرأته
    My grammar books says : يقترن جواب لو باللام لأنه ماضٍ مثبت
    i.e. we put (L) with the past affirmative form of the verb
     
    cherine said:
    I would read the book, if you gave it to me.
    قد أقرأ الكتاب إذا أعطيتنى إياه

    If you gave me the book, I would read it.
    إذا أعطيتنى الكتاب قد أقرأه

    I would have read book, if you had given it to me.
    كان من الممكن أن أقرأ الكتاب إذا كنت قد أعطيتنى إياه
    Click to expand...

    Hmmm... I don't agree with these translations.

    The first one says "I might read the book" and not "I would read the book." Same goes for the second one.

    The third says "I may have read the book" and not "I would have read the book."

    "Would" in English indicates certainty and not possibility; it is certain that something would have happened, had something else happened.

    I would translate the second one as لو أعطيتني الكتاب، لقرأته and the third as أنا كنت قد قرأت الكتاب، لو (أنك) كنت أعطيتني إياه. I am having trouble with the first one because with such a construction, I think it's more usual for the condition to come before the result, and not the other way around. And you can't just switch the two clauses from my translation of the second one. Perhaps someone else has a better idea for that one.
     
    I agree with you, I admitted having trouble translating these examples myself :)
    I prefer your translation of the second sentence. Very well.
    As for the third, it may "look" better if we switch it, specially that it sound strange : the first part means : I definitly read the book. If we switch it
    لو أنك كنت أعطيتنى الكتاب لكنت قرأته
    What do you think ?
    And still waiting for other opinions
     
    Well, that would be a translation of the fourth one, which I didn't comment on the first time because I liked it. :)

    I agree that the third one is awkward. As I said, I think the usual order in Arabic is "condition - result" and not "result - condition." I think my suggestion is an "acceptable" translation for the third one, but I can't seem to come up with even a passable one for the first one. :)

    I'm looking forward to other opinions as well.
     
    elroy said:
    the usual order in Arabic is "condition - result" and not "result - condition."
    Click to expand...

    Now you said it all Elroy :thumbsup: I think that's what made these translation attempts so difficult, they go against the "logic" of Arabic language, and in our attempt to respect the order of the English examples we only give ourselves -or more precisely Daniel gave us;) - very hard time. :)

    And still we are waiting for further contributions :)
     
    Hello,
    Sorry that I'm not writing in Arabic. The other day, I was at class and the teacher taught us conditionals in Arabic. He said there's no form of expressing a second type or third type conditional sentence in Arabic as there is in English.
    Is that really right?
    I mean, I can understand if there' no third conditional in Arabic. but how about second conditional? In second conditional, the "time" is not really past. Only the tense is past. Am I getting my message across to you?
    Don't you ever say "If I were you..."?
    If you do, how?
    Sorry if I did not make my self completely clear. Ask please if anything's vague.
    And thanks in advance!
     
    Well, I think there is a way to express third type conditional in Arabic. As for the second type, maybe not all its aspects can be expressed as exactly as in English.

    In Arabic, لو has many functions. One of them is expressing what is called in English "impossible conditions", whether in the present or the past.

    (Information and examples in English are based on this page and this page.)

    Third conditional is used "to talk about 'impossible' conditions, impossible because they are in the past and we cannot change what has happened".

    لو+ماض... لَـ in Arabic can do the job. It can be used to express impossibility of something for being in the past. For example:
    If I had seen him at the meeting, I would have asked him can be rendered: لو رأيتُه في الاجتماع لَسألتُه
    If she'd invited me, I'd have gone to her party can be rendered: لو دعتني لَذهبتُ إلى حفلتها

    As for the second conditional, when it's used to express "impossible" situations which are not in the past, you can also use لو+كان+اسم كان+مضارع... لَـ in Arabic. For example:
    If I had millions of dollars, I'd give a lot to charity. This can be rendered: لو كنت أملك ملايين الدولارات لَتبرّعت بمال كثير للجمعيات الخيرية.
    If I lived in Japan, I'd have sushi every day: لو كنت أعيش في اليابان لَأكلت السوشي كل يوم.

    This لو can also be used in "if I/you were" constructions. For example:
    If I was/were the President, I'd reduce taxes. This can be rendered: لو كنت الرئيس لَخفضت الضرائب.
    Note that "if I were you" is rendered in Arabic: لو كنت مكانك (literally, if I were in your place). For example:
    If I were you, I'd look for a new place to live. This can be rendered: لو كنت مكانك لَبحثت عن بيت جديد أعيش فيه.

    Now, it seems that the main difficulty lies in the following. The webpage explains:
    Note that the choice between the first and the second conditional is often a question of the speaker's attitude rather than of facts.
    Click to expand...
    My personal opinion (I might be wrong and I wish other members of the forum would correct me) is that this "speaker's attitude" cannot be easily conveyed in Arabic. The reference gives some examples for comparison, where "Otto thinks these things are possible, Peter doesn't". Here's one of them:
    Otto – If I get promoted, I'll throw a big party.
    Peter – If I got promoted, I'd throw a big party.

    They're both usually rendered in Arabic: إذا حصلتُ على ترقية فسأقيم حفلة كبيرة. I don't think you can easily convey this "attitude" in Arabic, but it could be understood from the context. Of course, you may add something like: إذا حصلت على ترقية، وهذا مستبعد جداً (وهذا شبه مستحيل)، فسأقيم حفلة كبيرة... but only if you had to.

    Note: if the construction expresses strong wishing, you can use لو+مضارع...فـ:
    لو أحصل على ترقية فسأقيم حفلة كبيرة.
     
    Last edited:
    Thank you so very much for the detailed explanations.
    I've been taught that in the first type of conditional in Arabic, you can use either past tense or present tense and the mean exactly the same.
    ان درستم، نجحتم or ان تدرسوا تنجحوا
    (Something the same as the thing happening in English, where you use "past tense" to imply improbability in "present".)
    But I have been told Arab speakers never needed to use second or third type of conditionals, which doesn't make sense in any way.
     
    Last edited:
    Rules for conditional sentences

    Is this correct for conditional sentences:
    The verb in the First (Conditional) Clause and the verb in the Second (Result) Clause should be conjugated in the perfect or jussive.

    Therefore, the following conditional sentences, in which verbs are conjugated in either the perfect or jussive, are correct:
    قال إنّه إذا اِشتَغَلَ، وفّرْ الفلوس
    (He said that if he works, he will save money).

    إذا لم يُلقِ خطابًا طويلاً، فلا يكون ذلك من المُعْتَاد
    (If he did not give a long speech, it would not be customary).
     
    I'm not a native Arabic speaker but here are my two cents, as no one has answered you yet. The preliminary statement is true, however, the verbs should usually match in tense.

    (1) I don't know if the use of indirect speech changes the verb conjugation in the conditional, but suppose it doesn't, then the second verb should be perfect as the first. I would go for قال إنّه إذا اشتَغَلَ وفّر الفلوس or قال إنّه إذا اشتَغَلَ فيوفّرُ الفلوس (in this case فَ "breaks" the influence of إذا). Please note that in the middle of a sentence, the hamza of the verb اِشتَغَلَ turns to hamzat alwasl.

    (2) Here you wrote a predictive conditional while the meaning in English is counterfactual conditional. The sentence you wrote in Arabic means: If he doesn't give a long speech, it will not be customary. If you meant to write a counterfactual conditional, you should use the word لَوْلَا. In your example, لولا ألقى خطابًا طويلاً لما كان ذلك...

    Check this nice website for more information: http://allthearabicyouneverlearnedthefirsttimearound.com/p2/p2-ch7/the-conditional/

    Cheers
     
    elroy said:
    I would translate the second one as لو أعطيتني الكتاب، لقرأته and the third as أنا كنت قد قرأت الكتاب، لو (أنك) كنت أعطيتني إياه. I am having trouble with the first one because with such a construction, I think it's more usual for the condition to come before the result, and not the other way around. And you can't just switch the two clauses from my translation of the second one. Perhaps someone else has a better idea for that one.
    Click to expand...
    This probably is the best answer, but since Whodunit refers to 'potentialis' and 'irrealis', which is something all textbooks discuss using similar examples, I think what was expected was إن فعل...فعل for 'if you gave me the book I would read it' (potential), and لو فعل... لفعل for 'if you had given me the book I would have read it' (impossible).

    I also have exactly the same kind of examples in my own Arabic textbook:
    -If he came, we would go to the movies = إن جاء ذهبنا إلى السينما
    -If he had come, we would have been to the movies = لو جاء لذهبنا إلى السينما with a footnote for this latter point mentioning that the past perfect (plus-que-parfait in French) is used to clearly show that the assumption is impossible, even though it would be more natural to use the simple past in English (or passé composé in French), but then you lose the clear indication of impossibility.
     
    By the way, إذا is never used to mean "if" in الفصحى. It is an invention of MSA. In Classical Arabic (الفصحى) it means "when". In Classical Arabic the word for "if" is إن.

    If you are using إن then you can use the past in both halves of the sentence:

    إن خرجتم خرجنا معكم
    If you go out we will go out with you.

    إن كانوا في البيت أعلمتك بهم
    If they are at home, I will let you know about them.
     
    Or you could use المضارع المجزوم, with no change in meaning whatsoever in classical Arabic. Observe:

    إن تخرجوا نخرجْ معكم
    إن خرجتم خرجنا معكم
    If you go out we will go out with you.

    إن يكونوا في البيت أعلمْك بهم
    إن كانوا في البيت أعلمتك بهم
    If they are at home, I will let you know about them.
     
    rarabara said:
    I think that this might be wrong because of reason why I remember some verses in Quran that uses إذا
    Click to expand...
    Yes, it occurs in the Quran, but it does not mean “if”. It means “when”. Look here:

    وَإِذَا سَأَلَكَ عِبَادِي عَنِّي فَإِنِّي قَرِيبٌ أُجِيبُ دَعْوَةَ الدَّاعِ إِذَا دَعَانِ فَلْيَسْتَجِيبُوا لِي وَلْيُؤْمِنُوا بِي لَعَلَّهُمْ يَرْشُدُونَ [سورة البقرة:186].
     
    إن did not change meaning. It’s understood as if.

    Note that some might still use إذا with the meaning of when. This meaning did not suddenly go away, it’s just very rarely used.
     
    That’s not true. I come across it quite a lot, and I for one use it quite a lot and no one ever misunderstood me or even told me that it was weird.

    I agree that you are more likely to come across إذا with the meaning of if, but it’s neither “hardly” nor “barely” used.

    The opposite, using إذا with the meaning of when, can be described as “hardly” or “barely”. I’d say that with the exception of people specialized in language (linguists, poets and such) and people that are interested in knowing, very few even know that it meant when in Classical Arabic.
     
    I think you are right, it is mostly a rough guess, without actually veryifing this one can't be sure. I've just taken a quick look at a known Arabic forum and searched a few of the top posts and found that إنْ is used almost as frequently as إذا, and this forum isn't even related to grammar or Arabic topics.
     
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