Conjunction "-noni"

[Captain Haddock]

That は seems very strange to me!

(Flam: referring to 「 この車はあかくはありませんけど、好きです」 in the original thread mentioned below.)

The first sentence would probably be better put:
この車は赤くないのに、好きです。



Flaminius:
This thread has been branched from here.

 

[Flaminius]

Captain Haddock,

Your example 「この車は赤くないのに、好きです」 is rather awkward but a viable interpretation is, "Though the car is not red, it likes (something)." Note the contrast between -noni and -ga or -kedo;

この車は赤くないが、好きだ。 kono kuruma-wa akakunai-ga, sukida.
この車は赤くないけど、好きです/好きだ。 kono kuruma-wa akakunai-kedo, sukidesu/sukida.
This car is not red, but I like it.

I take the liberty of making a tentative account for other posters to freely examine.

In my view, -noni seems to "copy" the subject of the sentence it belongs to and transfer it to the second clause as its subject. This function, however, can be overridden by an explicit subject in the second clause.

この車は赤くないのに、彼は買った。 kono-kuruma-wa akakunai-noni, kare-wa katta.
Though this car is not red, he bought it.

Here is another example of a subject implied by -noni;
私は美しいのに、だれも愛さない。 watashi-wa utsukusii-noni, daremo aisanai.
I am beautiful but love nobody.

In order to say, "Thought I am beautiful, nobody loves me," a trick is needed in the second clause in order to explicitly say that the subject there is not 私 or I;
私は美しいのに、だれも愛してくれない。 watashi-wa utsukushii-noni, daremo aishite kurenai.
Though I am beautiful, nobody loves me.

The trick here is the auxiliary verb kureru. Since it designates the speaker as the recepient of the action, the subject of the second sentence cannot be 私, which is none other than the speaker. Now that 私 is crossed out as the subject, the only remaining noun phrase だれも is allowed to be interpreted as the subject of the second clause.

The fact that -noni cannot follow -desu is another support for my position. By evidence from relative clauses, it is assumed that -desu cannot appear in subordinate clauses;

*帽子をかぶっています男の人は、彼女の父親です。

as opposed to
帽子をかぶっている男の人は、彼女の父親です。
bōshi-o kabutteiru otokonohito-wa, kanojo-no chichioya desu.
The man that is wearing a hat is her father.

If the clause marked by -noni is construed not as coordinate to the other clause but as subordinate, the implicit subject in the second clause can be assumed to be the topic of the subordinate clause.

Note
愛さない is the irregular -nai form for 愛する, which usually conjugates as a suru-verb.

Flam

 

[gaer]

Captain Haddock,

Your example 「この車は赤くないのに、好きです」 is rather awkward but a viable interpretation is, "Though the car is not red, it likes (something)." Note the contrast between -noni and -ga or -kedo;

この車は赤くないが、好きだ。 kono kuruma-wa akakunai-ga, sukida.
この車は赤くないけど、好きです/好きだ。 kono kuruma-wa akakunai-kedo, sukidesu/sukida.
This car is not red, but I like it.

My knowledge of Japanese is almost entirely based on kanji, which I studied FIRST, plus passive intuition. I'm very happy to see that there is now a forum for Japanese, because I have about a million questions. That's not quite right—about 10 million.

My own preference would be:

この車は赤くないけど、好きです/好きだ。

This car/not red—however, like + desu/da.

Whenever my friend in Japan writes me, she leaves out pronouns unless they are absolutely necessary. It's always my "problem" to figure out who she is writing about. If she had been talking about her husband and her looking at a car, that sentences would mean:

"WE like that car although it is not red."

I think that's really important to point out to people. Don't use Western logic.

And at no time to I claim to know what is correct or not correct in Japanese. My knowledge is too limtited.

Gaer

 

[Captain Haddock]

It's my understanding that のに implies contradiction.

Aのに、Bです　where B contradicts what you would naturally expect from A. Would you say that's correct?

Whereas けど usually just expresses contrast, so it applies in situations のに doesn't.

However, I also appreciate your explanation of how のに carries the subject over.

Regarding 愛さない, I didn't know that. Do other pseudo-suru verbs like 察する do that too? I can't remember seeing the negative before.

Gaer: Yes, I agree, true pronouns don't even exist in Japanese, and the more you can make do without using watashi and kare and so on, the better.

 

[gaer]

Gaer: Yes, I agree, true pronouns don't even exist in Japanese, and the more you can make do without using watashi and kare and so on, the better.

There are so many things left to interpretation in Japanese that we need, and there are just as many things said that are of great importance that don't even show up in English translations.

That's why I think Japanese is one step away from an alien language. And that works both ways. It also explains why English is so hard for the Japanese. SO many differences in culture show up in the languages themselves.

Gaer

 

[s_a_n_t_i]

Regarding 愛さない, I didn't know that. Do other pseudo-suru verbs like 察する do that too? I can't remember seeing the negative before.

Yes, many other verbs do that too.
For example, 察す、制す、感ず、称す、証す、etc.
Let's remember that the 可能形 (kanoukei) of these verbs are
愛せない、称せない、etc.

Best regards,
Santi.

 

[Flaminius]

It's my understanding that のに implies contradiction.

Aのに、Bです　where B contradicts what you would naturally expect from A. Would you say that's correct?

Whereas けど usually just expresses contrast, so it applies in situations のに doesn't.

Yes, のに implies contradiction between B and what is expected from A. I find myself enlightened by the following examples:

ロシアは遠いのに(*けど)、よく来てくれましたね。 expectation contradicted
ロシアは遠いけど(*のに)、来てしまいました。 concession

As expectation is by definition a mental activity for other people's behaviour, the second example (which explains one's own conduct) cannot take のに.

Hmmm, this seems to better explain why 「赤くないのに、好きだ」 is unacceptable than my previous post #2 does...

 

[Captain Haddock]

But perhaps 「赤くないのに、好きだ」 could work if the speaker had previously said he only liked red cars.