conllevar (Pronunciation of y sound in Spain)

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Sheppy

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How is the "hard" version pronounced? I.e. in words like conllevar. I had always thought it was [ɟʝ] but I saw it written somewhere as [dʝ] (presumably like the English d).
 
    • Sheppy said:
    How is the "hard" version pronounced? I.e. in words like conllevar. I had always thought it was [ɟʝ] but I saw it written somewhere as [dʝ] (presumably like the English d).
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    Existen varias maneras de pronunciar las letras "ll" y "y". Depende de cada país y en cada país en ocasiones de cada región. Hay una manera de pronunciar en Argentina (diferente a la manera de pronunciar en Chile, en España, etc.), pero en Argentina también varía.

    ¿En la pronunciación de qué país está interesado?
     
    Sheppy said:
    How is the "hard" version pronounced? I.e. in words like conllevar. I had always thought it was [ɟʝ] but I saw it written somewhere as [dʝ] (presumably like the English d).
    Click to expand...

    As mentioned above, it depends on the locale. In Mexico it is often close to the English Y, but in Argentina it sounded (to me) almost like the English SH sound with some speakers, with "Yo llegué ayer" sounding sort of like "sho shegué asher" (only somewhat exaggerated).

    Your thread title says "in Spain." Are you asking only about that country? I think it varies even there.
     
    gengo said:
    but in Argentina it sounded (to me) almost like the English SH sound with some speakers, with "Yo llegué ayer" sounding sort of like "sho shegué asher" (only somewhat exaggerated).
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    Precisely what I meant. That English SH sound is very strong in Buenos Aires, but in some other large areas is closer to the English Y. And as far as I know in Spain there are also variations.
     
    It's not a Y but a LL.
    I say it because of the title: in some places they sound the same but not in others, and you're asking about a LL.
    For me it's [ʎ], but you may probably hear [ʝ], [dʒ] or [ʒ] depending on the region and the person.
     
    I presume that the question is not about the pronunciation of "ll" generally,
    but rather how it is affected in "conllevar" by the "n" of the prefix.
    It is commonly said that /b/, /d/, and /g/ are realized in their stop (occlusive) allophones when following a nasal consonant; that is, as [ b ], [d], and [g], rather than [β], [δ], and [γ ].
    Does "ll" (at least when merged with "y") belong to the same category?
    I see the occlusivity represented in [dʝ], but in [ɟʝ] I'm unsure what the first segment represents.
    By the way, we need not limit ourselves to rare words like "conllevar":
    the same situation can arise across a word boundary. Consider for example Juan Rulfo's El llano en llamas.
     
    La nasal n es la que se ve afectada por el contacto con la palatal ll, no al revés. El resultado es la palatalización de n en ñ.
    /koɲʎe'βar/. Y ocurre lo mismo si se pronuncia con yeísmo /koɲje'βar/.
     
    Aquí podéis escuchar el sonido [ɟʝ], de yo, ya, cónyuge del centro de España. Asimismo es el sonido de la ll de conllevar si el hablante es yeísta, y hay cada vez más yeístas en España.
     
    Circunflejo said:
    :confused:
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    Te he enviado un privado.
    EDITO
    Para precisar un poco más lo anterior:

    "La forma palatalizada, por su parte, es la característica cuando el segmento /n/ precede a consonantes palatales, como en ['kanj.t͡ʃa] cancha o ['konj.d͡ʒu.xe] cónyuge. Se trata de una forma palatalizada [nj] (1) y no de la palatal [ɲ], porque es la parte anterior del predorso de la lengua la que forma la oclusión con la zona prepalatal; de ahí que el proceso consista en una ligera palatalización y no en una palatal propiamente dicha".
    Nueva gramática de la lengua española. Fonética y fonología (ASALE) pág. 240.

    (1) no encuentro el símbolo apropiado para la n palatal; es una n seguida de una j pequeña volada.
     
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    It would be nice if who wrote the info in @Reina de la Aldea's link knew that, in Spain (and a few areas abroad of Spain too), the traditional /ʎ/ pronunciation still exists for <ll>.

    Agró said:
    no encuentro el símbolo apropiado para la n palatal; es una n seguida de una j pequeña volada.
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    [nʲ]

    P.S.: Ya te respondí al privado, @Agró.
     
    Reina de la Aldea said:
    No matter what version of the 'll' sound the OP is after, this article should be of help.
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    Yes, but it would be nice if who wrote it knew that in Spain the traditional /ʎ/ pronunciation still exists for <ll> because it's only quoted as existing in the Philippines and some countries in the Americas.
     
    Circunflejo said:
    in Spain the traditional /ʎ/ pronunciation still exists for <ll> because it's only quoted as existing in the Philippines and some countries in the Americas
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    That's strange, because I was specifically taught the the ll/y distinction, where calló and cayó are not synonyms homophones--thanks, Mr. C) was characteristic of certain regions of Spain (parts of Castilla, I believe).
     
    User With No Name said:
    That's strange, because I was specifically taught the the ll/y distinction, where calló and cayó are not synonyms) was characteristic of certain regions of Spain (parts of Castilla, I believe).
    Click to expand...
    Ask the author of Reina de la Aldea's link.
    User With No Name said:
    calló and cayó are not synonyms
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    You meant homophones. :) Although it's true that they aren't synonyms either but that's true regardless of pronunciation.
     
    Reina de la Aldea said:
    Can you describe more specifically how to place the tongue?
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    Tongue is flat locked under lower teeth. You open your mouth and raise the central part of the tongue towards the soft palate.
    Circunflejo said:
    Ask the author of Reina de la Aldea's link.

    You meant homophones. :) Although it's true that they aren't synonyms either but that's true regardless of pronunciation.
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    Some people in Spain really don't know about the difference anymore. I saw ¿Cómo te hayas? written and I had to really think about it before I caught the intended meaning

    That's strange, because I was specifically taught the the ll/y distinction, where calló and cayó are not synonyms homophones--thanks, Mr. C) was characteristic of certain regions of Spain (parts of Castilla, I believe)
    Click to expand...
    @User With No Name This is both true and false. Many people spread about the north traditionally made the difference, and some people everywhere made it. But there has been a generational change. In mass pretty much all young people wherever they're from unfortunately gave it up. The change has been very quick and very strong.
     
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