consideri che anticamente si ritenevano benefici gli effluvi

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xeno....

Senior Member
Uk.
English
Ciao a tutti,
Ho traducendo qualcosa e non sono sicuro è corretto.
Il contesto riguarda il ciocolatto e il suo bene salutario e putativo.
"Sì, sicuramente...in ogni caso è un ciocolatto che contiene meno grasso. Consideri che anticamente si ritenevano benefici gli effluvi della carta in cui era avvolto questa tipologia di ciocolatto in caso di influenza ed altro."
Il mio tentativo: Yes, certainly...in each case is a chocolate that contains less fat. You might consider that in ancient times, the effluvium of the paper in which it was wrapped retained benefits, that is this type of chocolate in cases of flu and such like."
Grazie a tutti.
 
  • CPA

    Senior Member
    British English/Italian - bilingual
    Ciao Xeno!

    Yes, certainly... in any case it's a chocolate that contains less fat. Consider that in ancient times, the scent of the paper in which it was wrapped was thought to be beneficial in the case of flu and other things. ;)
     

    Tunalagatta

    Senior Member
    English - England
    Hi,

    A couple of points:

    "in ogni caso" is something like the phrase "in any case", "anyway" - it doesn't refer to a kind of container, but the speaker is making a link with something he/she has said previously.

    "ritenere - ritenevano" - this verb means "believe", not "retain".

    This is my attempt:

    "Yes, certainly...in any case, it is a chocolate that contains less fat [ but less than what? Could I say, 'it is a low-fat chocolate'? ]. It is worth noting that once, the traces of scent left on the wrapping paper of this kind of chocolate were thought to have beneficial properties, such as for treating flu and other ailments."

    Let's see if anyone else can improve on this!
     

    xeno....

    Senior Member
    Uk.
    English
    Oh, I was thinking that it meant that the benefits were retained by the vapours of the chocolate captured by the wrapping.
     

    Tunalagatta

    Senior Member
    English - England
    I think it is "believe" here because

    1) if it did mean "retain", the reflexive form wouldn't be necessary (ritenevano, not si ritenevano) - can an Italian madre lingua confirm this??

    2) If the scent contained in the paper retained beneficial properties in the past, why does it no longer do so? It is more likely that this was a widely held belief, such as the belief that holdng a posy of flowers to your nose would keep away the Plague :eek:.

    3) "...si ritenevano benefici gli effluvi della carta in cui era avvolto questa tipologia di cioccolato in caso di influenza ed altro." - " ...the scent of the paper in which it was wrapped retained beneficial properties in the case of flu and other things" -

    the logic doesn't seem right here. It is as if the scent "knows" you have flu, so it holds in a few benefits for you. How kind! ;)
     

    Enigmista

    Senior Member
    Italiano
    I think it is "believe" here because

    1) if it did mean "retain", the reflexive form wouldn't be necessary (ritenevano, not si ritenevano) - can an Italian madre lingua confirm this??

    2) If the scent contained in the paper retained beneficial properties in the past, why does it no longer do so? It is more likely that this was a widely held belief, such as the belief that holdng a posy of flowers to your nose would keep away the Plague :eek:.

    3) "...si ritenevano benefici gli effluvi della carta in cui era avvolto questa tipologia di cioccolato in caso di influenza ed altro." - " ...the scent of the paper in which it was wrapped retained beneficial properties in the case of flu and other things" -

    the logic doesn't seem right here. It is as if the scent "knows" you have flu, so it holds in a few benefits for you. How kind! ;)

    Si ritenevano is the correct one guys :)....It means one believed/thought that the scent of paper ....etc....was beneficial to....

    Or The scent of the paper in which it was wrapped was believed to have beneficial properties...etc..

    Or The scent of the paper in which it was wrapped was believed to be beneficial in the case of...etc.

    Ovviamente anche solamente "ritenevano" sarebbe corretto a patto di usare il soggetto ossia esempio: Nel passato gli antichi ritenevano che ....
     

    xeno....

    Senior Member
    Uk.
    English
    Well, if so, what an ugly structure, it seems to me the subject is passive of gli Effluvi. Maybe someone could dissect the grammar for me. The reflexive could be expressing the passive.
     

    Enigmista

    Senior Member
    Italiano
    Non è poi cosi strana Xeno...il si nella frase è un "SI" impersonale se non erro :)

    Esistono infatti in grammatica i SI Impersonali/riflessivi/passivi


    P.s: Sono d'accordo che l'Italiano è un po complesso in certe costruzioni ;)
     

    xeno....

    Senior Member
    Uk.
    English
    Davvero hai ragione! :)
    Letteralmente poi la frase significa "If you consider that anciently, they believed/thought benefits the vapours of the paper in which was wrapped this type of chocolate in the case of flu or other such like"? Parli davvero un'italiano così o trovi un modo più semplice?
     
    Last edited:

    Enigmista

    Senior Member
    Italiano
    Davvero hai ragione! :)
    Letteralmente poi la frase significa "If you consider that anciently, they believed/thought benefits the vapours of the paper in which was wrapped this type of chocolate in the case of flu or other such like"? Would an Italian really sperak like this? Or would he seek a simpler version?
    Aspetta conferma o ancora meglio, chiedi nel forum solo Italiano perchè non posso darti la conferma ufficiale se si tratta di un SI "passivante" o di un "impersonale". :)

    Davvero hai ragione! :)
    Letteralmente poi la frase significa "If you consider that anciently, they believed/thought benefits the vapours of the paper in which was wrapped this type of chocolate in the case of flu or other such like"? Parli davvero un'italiano cosi o trovi un modo piu semplice?
    La frase che proponi è corretta a mio avviso anche per un Italiano infatti hai utilizzato "they" nel tuo esempio...

    Potremmo dire:

    Se consideri che anticamente (loro-gli antichi) credevano che i vapori di....avessero benefici contro le malattie...avessero proprietà benefiche per....
    Il soggetto in questo caso è leggermente sottointeso

    Oppure usando la forma con il "si":
    Se consideri che anticamente si credeva/pensava (in general and the subject is not explict) che i vapori di....avessero benefici contro le malattie...avessero proprietà benefiche per...etc...etc...

    That's my humble opinion and wait for the others ;)
     
    Last edited by a moderator:

    xeno....

    Senior Member
    Uk.
    English
    I see. Sometimes in Italian there are gaps to be filled in.Thank you for your very great efforts and help Enigmista. You are an asset here on the forum! :)
     

    Enigmista

    Senior Member
    Italiano
    I see. Sometimes in Italian there are gaps to be filled in.Thank you for your very great efforts and help Enigmista. You are an asset here on the forum! :)
    Troppo gentile Xeno :eek:...ci sono tante persone in gamba e molto più competenti di me qua su WR ...

    Mi fa piacere averti forse chiarito qualche tuo dubbio :)
     
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