Croatian/Serbian (BCS): Biti and htjeti/hteti - auxiliary verbs

!netko!

Member
Croatian, Croatia
Bok svima
Hi, everyone

''Jesam'' is most definitely the present form of ''biti''. ''Budem'' is the unfinished present form (nesvršeni oblik) of ''biti'', while ''jesam'' is the finished form (svršeni oblik). I know this for certain. I don't get the confusion?
 
  • natasha2000

    Senior Member
    Bok svima
    Hi, everyone

    ''Jesam'' is most definitely the present form of ''biti''. ''Budem'' is the unfinished present form (nesvršeni oblik) of ''biti'', while ''jesam'' is the finished form (svršeni oblik). I know this for certain. I don't get the confusion?


    I was investigating a little bit, and this is the answer I got on another forum which is about Serbian language:
    Jednostavno, to su dva različita glagola s različitim značenjem (uzgred, Pravopis iz 1960. kad smo još bili jedan jezik takođe razlikuje ova dva glagola) i ne možemo koristiti jedan umesto drugog. To što jesam nema nikakve oblike osim prezenta (pa čak ni infinitiv) ne treba mnogo da nas uzbuđuje jer postoji još sličnih glagola: velim (iako pomenuti Pravopis iz 1960. daje veleti, više se ne smatra tako), nemoj (samo oblici imperativa za drugo lice jednine i prva dva množine), hajde (takođe samo oblici imperativa; a u drugim situacijama se sreće i kao uzvik i čak kao prilog).

    Glagol biti ima sve oblike sem trpnog prideva, i stoga ne vidim zašto bismo mu „kalemili“ neke druge prezente.

    So, if in 1960, both Croatian and Serbian language made difference between jesam and biti, and nowadays, all grammars of Croatian language make it one verb (see links here), then I wold dare to say that this novelty appeared together with the new Croatian state.

    So, we are both right... Each one in respect to their own language...:D
     

    !netko!

    Member
    Croatian, Croatia
    I guess we are then, natasha... ''Jesam'' as a seperate verb sounds quite illogical to me, but I guess if so many Serbian speakers say so, then it's treated that way in Serbian. It's quite interesting, I never would've imagined that... Also,it's interesting that in Russian there's only one form of the verb. I wonder how it is in other Slavic languages?

    By the way, I can assure you that it's no novelty, it's always been that way in Croatian. So, about the definition of verb ''jesam'' in 1960, it's just the Serbian definition. Many so-called Serbo-Croatian definitions were actually just Serbian. Many things that Serbian speakers would call novelties in Croatian are just normal, straightforward Croatian that sounds strange to you because Serbian forms were prefered in Yugoslavia.:)
     

    Mayyya

    New Member
    Serbian, Serbia
    So the verdict is: 3 in Serbian, 2 in Croatian!

    Here is yet another vote from Serbia: 2
    Namely, there is no need to stick to nonsense written in the grammar books of 60s (no matter which region of ex Yu they are from). What does it mean that "jesam" has only present tense and therefore is different from "biti"? Then, one might say that "am" is a completely different auxiliary, and since it does sound and look differnet from "is", then, "is" would be yet another auxiliary etc.
    I remember that we were taught at schools that there were three auxiliaries "jesam, biti, hteti", but we didn't think about that - it was just rote learning (didn't differ much from "Eci, peci, pec" to me then ), and I think the aim of this thread is to find out if there is a REAL reason for "jesam" to be treated as a separate auxiliary.
     

    natasha2000

    Senior Member
    Here is yet another vote from Serbia: 2
    Namely, there is no need to stick to nonsense written in the grammar books of 60s (no matter which region of ex Yu they are from). What does it mean that "jesam" has only present tense and therefore is different from "biti"? Then, one might say that "am" is a completely different auxiliary, and since it does sound and look differnet from "is", then, "is" would be yet another auxiliary etc.
    I remember that we were taught at schools that there were three auxiliaries "jesam, biti, hteti", but we didn't think about that - it was just rote learning (didn't differ much from "Eci, peci, pec" to me then ), and I think the aim of this thread is to find out if there is a REAL reason for "jesam" to be treated as a separate auxiliary.


    Mayyya, the thing is that also in today's grammars in Serbia, there are still three auxiliary verbs, and it is not based only on some old book from 1960.
    I can agree with you and say that to me, it looks like a nonsence. But this won't change the fact that in Serbia three auxiliaries is what is considered correct.

    If you want to give a suggestion to SANU or whatever institution who is in charge for making grammar rules, to change this, I would be the first to support you, with all my heart. But in the meantime, Serbian has three auxiliary verbs.:(

    Anyway, this type of grammar rules are completely unnecesary for someone who wants to learn language, unless he doesn't want to become a grammarian.
     

    Maja

    Senior Member
    Serbian, Serbia
    Mayyya, the thing is that also in today's grammars in Serbia, there are still three auxiliary verbs, and it is not based only on some old book from 1960.
    I can agree with you and say that to me, it looks like a nonsence. But this won't change the fact that in Serbia three auxiliaries is what is considered correct.
    I agree!!! The reference I used was "Gramatika srpskog jezika" by Živojin Stanojčić and Ljubomir Popović, published in 1992.
    Officially 3!!!
     

    Mayyya

    New Member
    Serbian, Serbia
    OK. Very true indeed - reminds me of many things happening around. Shall we start another tread with a more meaningful purpose?;)
     

    dusica

    Member
    Serbian,Serbia
    I agree!!! The reference I used was "Gramatika srpskog jezika" by Živojin Stanojčić and Ljubomir Popović, published in 1992.
    Officially 3!!!

    I have the same one published in 1997.It says 3 :) And I've never heard before for finished and unfinished auxiliary verbs.
     

    !netko!

    Member
    Croatian, Croatia
    I have the same one published in 1997.It says 3 :) And I've never heard before for finished and unfinished auxiliary verbs.


    I can't talk about Serbian but in Croatian, an auxiliary verb has its finished and unfinished form, simply because it's a verb, and that's what verbs have-finished and unfinished forms, and, at least in Croatian, in the case of ''biti'' there is a big difference between the two forms- ''jesam'' and ''budem'' - but they're still the same verb.

    :) Hope that helps
     

    dusica

    Member
    Serbian,Serbia
    No,we were taught at school that the auxiliary verbs have only one form.No one has ever mentioned to us the finished and unfinished auxiliary verbs,and I think it's a little bit too important to be omitted just like that by teachers.In the Serbian grammar books published during the past 10 years,you can't find that information.It is just said 'there are 3 auxiliary verbs in Serbian: jesam,biti and hteti',and 'jesam' is definitely a separate auxiliary verb in Serbian.It doesn't have infinitive,but only present tense.
    I don't know why,but that's what children learn at school.
     

    natasha2000

    Senior Member
    BITI

    naglašeni nesvršeni: jesam

    nenaglašeni nesvršeni: sam

    svršeni prezent: budem

    HTJETI

    naglašeni nesvršeni: hoću

    nenaglašeni nesvršeni : ću


    svršeni prezent: ht(j)ednem


    Maybe this is the difference. In the very same definition. As far as I know, htednem, htednes etc does not exist in Serbian. We do not use this form of HTETI.
    Thus, there are no finished and unfinished forms of the verb BITI, but two different verbs. JESAM and BITI. On the other hand, we do have stressed and not stressed forms...

    I think this is just a question of different terminology, and nothing more...
     

    !netko!

    Member
    Croatian, Croatia
    In Croatian, we use words prohtjedne, ushtjedne:

    Ne možeš otići kad god ti se prohtjedne.

    Tako mi se često ushtjedne kolača.


    I'm not 100% sure if it's correct, though.
     

    natasha2000

    Senior Member
    In Croatian, we use words prohtjedne, ushtjedne:

    Ne možeš otići kad god ti se prohtjedne.

    Tako mi se često ushtjedne kolača.


    I'm not 100% sure if it's correct, though.


    Excuse me-... I don't understand. Croatian uses these two verbs for what?:confused:

    These two sentences would be in Serbian a little bit different...

    1. Ne možeš da ideš kad ti hoćeš (kad tebi padne na pamet)... (There are more vulgar expressions, I think you all know about them, it has to do with stomack gases...:eek: :p , but here it does not serve too much)...

    2. Tako često se uželim kolača. (često poželim kolača. dobijem želju za kolačima... itd...)

    I do not understand what these two examples have to do with auxiliary verbs... Would you mind explaining it, please?
     

    !netko!

    Member
    Croatian, Croatia
    I'm just commenting on the use of: ''htjedne'', as the finished form of ''htjeti'', which relates to ''bude'' as the finished form of ''biti''. I'm actually responding to what you yourself said about the non-usage of ''htjedne'' in Serbian.:D

    There are more ways to express the thoughts expressed in the sentences I mentioned, including those similar to the ones you wrote. I'm just saying they can also be expressed in this form ( with prohtjedne, ushtjedne).
     

    natasha2000

    Senior Member
    I'm just commenting on the use of: ''htjedne'', as the finished form of ''htjeti'', which relates to ''bude'' as the finished form of ''biti''. I'm actually responding to what you yourself said about the non-usage of ''htjedne'' in Serbian.:D

    There are more ways to express the thoughts expressed in the sentences I mentioned, including those similar to the ones you wrote. I'm just saying they can also be expressed in this form ( with prohtjedne, ushtjedne).

    OK, thanks... If I uderstood you correctly, you say that htjednem has the same meaning as prohtjedne, ushtjedne....
    But I think that htjedne and prohtjedne, ushtjedne don't have the same meaning...

    I think that htjedne in Croatian is what in Serbian would be budem,budes, bude itd. hteo (futur II).

    Ako htjedneš ići na žur, zovi me.
    Ako budeš hteo da ideš na žur(ku), zovi me.

    prohtjednuti, ushtjednuti, at least to me has the meaning of getting a sudden wish for something, not just only plain: want....

    Did I uderstand you well?:confused: Somehow I have the feeling I didn't...:(
     

    !netko!

    Member
    Croatian, Croatia
    No, you're right: htjedne doesn't have the same meaning and it can't be used (as far as I know) in Croatian.
    There's nothing to understand about my post really, I just mentioned two finished verbs with the same etimology as the infamous ''htjedne'' and as for ''htjedne'' itself, I'm not sure if it exists Croatian ( my first guess is no, but I've seen stranger things in grammar books, so who knows?:) )
     

    natasha2000

    Senior Member
    It doesn't exist in Croatian?:confused:
    But...
    Now I am REALLY confused...
    So, Ako htjednem does not exist in Croatian?

    So, if it not used in Serbian, and it is not used in Croatian... then... How the hell it got into the grammar books????

    Anyone with some logical explanation?:(

    PS: I vaguely remember that my Granny used to say Ako htjednem...., and she was a Croat from Bosnia....
     

    !netko!

    Member
    Croatian, Croatia
    I said it might exist. I guess it's archaic, or maybe your grandmother was using a form that wasn't officially correct. There's no need to be confused. Maybe we should wait for another Croatian speaker, who has access to a grammar book. I can't find mine at the moment. If it exists, it's definitely not widely used and has archaic connotations.
     

    GoranBcn

    Senior Member
    Catalan, Spanish, Croatian/Serbian
    Ja sam također zbunjen. Izgleda svaki dan ubacuju neka nova pravila. Ako ne pratiš te stvari, izgubljen si. :D

    Ako smo svi ovdje "naši" zašto pišete na engleskom? :D
    Pišite malo i na hrvatskom ili srpskom tako da nešto novo svi naučim
    o.
    ;)
     

    natasha2000

    Senior Member
    Ja sam također zbunjen. Izgleda svaki dan ubacuju neka nova pravila. Ako ne pratiš te stvari, izgubljen si. :D

    Ako smo svi ovdje "naši" zašto govorite na engleskom? :D
    Pišite malo i na hrvatskom ili srpskom tako da nešto novo svi naučimo. ;)

    U pravu si.:D A oni koji uče jezik, trebalo bi da znaju da rastumače ono što je napisano.

    Ja sam oduvek imala utisak da je to htjednem, htjedneš itd. hrvatski, ne znam zašto... Možda je stvarno neki arhaičan oblik koji se više ne koristi ni ko nas ni kod vas:D ... Jer ja se sećam moje bake, a ona, da je živa, imala bi sada preko 80 godina... Dovoljno da neko govori arhaično, zar ne?

    Što se tiče menjanja pravila, daaaa... Tu si potpuno u pravu... Nema tome mnogo, saznah za čitavu seriju oblika koji su sada dozvoljeni a koji su ranije bili potpuno nepravilni. Jedan od takvih primera koji meni ne mogu da udju u glavu je zadnji put. (Ivan Klajn. Rečnik jezičkih nedoumica. Čigoja štampa, 2002. str. 197.) Nekad beše poslednji i tačka, zadnje su bile noge u magarca, ali sad je dozvoljeno i zadnji, kao da postoji prednji put... Al' šta se tu može, jezik je živo biće i menja se i treba da se menja...:)
     

    Maja

    Senior Member
    Serbian, Serbia
    I can't talk about Serbian but in Croatian, an auxiliary verb has its finished and unfinished form, simply because it's a verb, and that's what verbs have-finished and unfinished forms, and, at least in Croatian, in the case of ''biti'' there is a big difference between the two forms- ''jesam'' and ''budem'' - but they're still the same verb.
    I am pretty sure there is no such thing in Serbian! Our verbs do have perfective and imperfective aspects (svršeni i nesvršeni vid), but not the auxiliary verbs.
    Example: pročitati / čitati, pojesti / jesti, pogledati / gledati ...
     

    venenum

    Senior Member
    Croatian/Croatia
    Hrvatski enciklopedijski riječnik Jutarnjeg lista (obožavam ih zbog tih 12 knjižica!) kaže:

    htjednem: prez. svrš. u službi futura II

    dakle, zaključak glasi da su obje strane u pravu: oblik postoji, i koristi se kao futur II, kada se koristi (ja osobno nisam baš čula da se ljudi razbacuju njime)
    Ali da dodam ulja na vatru: kako htjeti može imati i imperfekt i aorist ako nema svršeni oblik? (Je da je imperfekt blaga debilana: hotijah/hoćah - de, tko još tako što kaže? Ali ipak postoji.)

    PS
    @ Goran:
    Pisali smo na engleskom:
    a) jer si ti započeo temu na engleskom
    b) zbog onih koji ne govore hrvatski/srpski a možda bi pratili temu (a bilo je takvih)

    Žao mi je što se ovdje nije primio onaj prijedlog o dvojezičnim postovima.
     

    Maja

    Senior Member
    Serbian, Serbia
    Jedan od takvih primera koji meni ne mogu da udju u glavu je zadnji put. (Ivan Klajn. Rečnik jezičkih nedoumica. Čigoja štampa, 2002. str. 197.) Nekad beše poslednji i tačka, zadnje su bile noge u magarca, ali sad je dozvoljeno i zadnji, kao da postoji prednji put...
    Nije valjda? Pa jedva smo naučili da je prednji-zadnji, prvi-poslednji a sad odjednom nema veze... Bedak!
     

    natasha2000

    Senior Member
    Hrvatski enciklopedijski riječnik Jutarnjeg lista (obožavam ih zbog tih 12 knjižica!) kaže:

    dakle, zaključak glasi da su obje strane u pravu: oblik postoji, i koristi se kao futur II, kada se koristi (ja osobno nisam baš čula da se ljudi razbacuju njime)

    Baš kao moja dva primera!
    Ako htjedneš ići na žur, zovi me. (prezent u upotrebi kao futur II)
    Ako budeš hteo da ideš na žur(ku), zovi me. (futur II)

    Ali da dodam ulja na vatru: kako htjeti može imati i imperfekt i aorist ako nema svršeni oblik? (Je da je imperfekt blaga debilana: hotijah/hoćah - de, tko još tako što kaže? Ali ipak postoji.)

    Ma ima, sigurno. Ali to više niko ne koristi. Aorist, uopšte, u srpskom ( usudjujem se de kažem i u hrvatskom) gubi na važnosti, i umesto njega, sve više se koristi perfekt. Koristi se samo u specijalnim slučajevima, kao na primer za buduće radnje, kad kažeš: Odoh ja. A u stvari još nisi otišao, nego samo najavljuješ šta će se desiti u skoroj budućnosti...
    Hotijah, hotijaše itd. sigurno postoji, ali u tekstovima tipa Gorski vijenac i Kraljevižu Marko ore drumove carske...;) Imperfekt je odavno mrtav.

    PS
    @ Goran:
    Pisali smo na engleskom:
    a) jer si ti započeo temu na engleskom
    b) zbog onih koji ne govore hrvatski/srpski a možda bi pratili temu (a bilo je takvih)

    Žao mi je što se ovdje nije primio onaj prijedlog o dvojezičnim postovima.
    Dobar predlog, nema šta. Ali je izuzetno time-consuming. Za nestrpljive osobe (kao ja:D ) gotovo nemoguće ostvarljiv... S druge strane, to mogu da razumem u dimenzijama u kojima je predloženo, kad u razgovoru učestvuje više osoba koje ne govore isti jezik. Ali kada, kao u ovom threadu, svi učesnici se medjusobno razumeju iako svaki govori svojim maternjim jezikom, ne vidim potrebu za prevodima na engl. jezik. A onaj ko uči "naški" neka se potrudi da razume... Ni meni niko ne prevodi u English or Spanish Only....:)
     

    GoranBcn

    Senior Member
    Catalan, Spanish, Croatian/Serbian
    @ Goran:
    Pisali smo na engleskom:
    a) jer si ti započeo temu na engleskom
    b) zbog onih koji ne govore hrvatski/srpski a možda bi pratili temu (a bilo je takvih)

    Žao mi je što se ovdje nije primio onaj prijedlog o dvojezičnim postovima.

    Počeo sam je engleskom jer sam mislio da će i stranci učestvovati ali sad vidim da smo samo mi ovdje. Zbog toga sam predložio to. Inače i meni to odgovara jer sam mnogo tih stvari zaboravio i ovo mi je jedina prilika da pišem na mom jeziku :)
    Znači prema onome što sam do sad pročitao u školama u Hrvatskoj djeca uče da postoje dva pomoćna glagola a u školama u Srbiji tri? Kako li je sad u Bosni? :) Mi smo tamo uvijek uzimali malo od jednih a malo od drugih jer smo se nalazili na vjetrometini. :D Možda tamo postoje 2,5 pomoćnih glagola? :D Ko/tko zna? :D
     

    GoranBcn

    Senior Member
    Catalan, Spanish, Croatian/Serbian
    Evo našao sam jednu knjigu gramatike ovdje u Barceloni Manual básico hispano serbocroata (dialecto íeakavo) con vocabulario - sexta edición 1998 od Sandre Stanisavljević.

    Na španjolskom je naravno a kaže ovo:

    En serbocroata existen dos verbos auxiliares: biti (ser) y htjeti (querer). El verbo auxiliar biti en presente tiene cuatro formas:

    forma completa: jesam, jesi, jest, jesmo, jeste, jesu
    forma breve: sam, si, je, smo, ste, su
    forma negativa: nisam, nisi, nije, nismo, niste, nisu
    forma biaspectual: budem, budeš, bude, budemo, budete, budu
    forma pasiva: bivam, bivaš, biva, bivamo, bivate, bivaju

    El verbo auxiliar htjeti tiene dos formas de presente:

    forma completa: hoću, hoćeš, hoće, hoćemo, hoćete, hoće
    forma breve: ću, ćeš, će, ćemo, ćete, će
    forma negativa: neću, nećeš, neće, nećemo, nećete, neće

    Goran
     

    natasha2000

    Senior Member
    Evo našao sam jednu knjigu gramatike ovdje u Barceloni Manual básico hispano serbocroata (dialecto íeakavo) con vocabulario - sexta edición 1998 od Sandre Stanisavljević.

    Na španjolskom je naravno a kaže ovo:

    En serbocroata existen dos verbos auxiliares: biti (ser) y htjeti (querer). El verbo auxiliar biti en presente tiene cuatro formas:

    forma completa: jesam, jesi, jest, jesmo, jeste, jesu
    forma breve: sam, si, je, smo, ste, su
    forma negativa: nisam, nisi, nije, nismo, niste, nisu
    forma biaspectual: budem, budeš, bude, budemo, budete, budu
    forma pasiva: bivam, bivaš, biva, bivamo, bivate, bivaju

    El verbo auxiliar htjeti tiene dos formas de presente:

    forma completa: hoću, hoćeš, hoće, hoćemo, hoćete, hoće
    forma breve: ću, ćeš, će, ćemo, ćete, će
    forma negativa: neću, nećeš, neće, nećemo, nećete, neće

    Goran

    Ne razumem ovo "biaspectual"??? Kako, biaspectual? Dva aspekta? :confused: Šta gdja. Stanisavljević hoće da kaže time "biaspectual"?
     
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