déformation professionnelle

flobel

Senior Member
France - français
Bonjour.

Connaissez-vous une traduction pour l'expression "déformation professionnelle". Cela signifie que l'activité professionnelle d'une personne a une influence sur la manière dont elle parle.

Merci.

Florian

The train manager used the 24 hours format to tell the time. It was maybe a railroad "déformation professionnelle".

If the sentence is wrong, you can correct it :)

Florian
 
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  • watchman11

    New Member
    France
    I'd need the translation too.

    More info on the context. It's employed to decribe a pattern (peculiar to their job, sometimes quirky) that someone would repeat in their private life.
     

    Gil

    Senior Member
    Français, Canada
    This might help get round the problem:
    déformation
    déformation professionnelle = habits acquired through doing the type of work one does
    elle est professeur, c'est donc par déformation professionnelle qu'elle répète tout tout le temps
    it must be because she's a teacher that she repeats things all the time
    il fait de la déformation professionnelle
    he's like that because of his job
    Copyright © 2000, Harrap's Multimedia, © 2000, Havas Interactive
     

    RuK

    Senior Member
    English/lives France
    Mon mari voit des virus partout; c'est une déformation professionnelle -- il est médecin. Je suis journaliste, j'ai une déformation professionnelle, je pose tout le temps des questions.
    It might be translated by "a professional tic", though that sounds a bit clumsy. (Or a work-induced tic? To me, sounds even more clunky).

    PS Sorry Gil, you got there first
     

    Kelly B

    Senior Member
    USA English
    Hello and welcome, watchman11,
    I liked French4Beth's hazard of the profession; professional quirk also comes to mind.

    It would still help to see a complete sentence, to confirm that it is being used properly.

    Edit based on RuK's post: it comes (or goes?) with the job.
     

    Gil

    Senior Member
    Français, Canada
    It might be translated by "a professional tic", though that sounds a bit clumsy. (Or a work-induced tic? To me, sounds even more clunky).
    While checking "tic" (It's O.K.:)), I found "mannerism".
    Maybe professional or work-induced or trade-induced mannerism.
     
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    timpeac

    Senior Member
    English (England)
    By the sound of it there is no one translation into English that will work for all French examples so to be sure a full original sentence is vital.

    For Ruk's examples I'd say "that's journalists for you" or "that's doctors for you".

    I know I ask questions all the time, but that's journalists for you!
     

    Gordo

    Senior Member
    Scotland, English
    I've heard 'deformation professionnelle' used by non french speaking anglophones.... like we use 'deja vu' or 'schadenfreude' sometimes English just doesn't have the word for it! :)
     

    timpeac

    Senior Member
    English (England)
    I've heard 'deformation professionnelle' used by non french speaking anglophones.... like we use 'deja vu' or 'schadenfreude' sometimes English just doesn't have the word for it! :)
    That's non French-speaking anglophones for you!;)
     

    Nil-the-Frogg

    Senior Member
    Français (France)
    Hi, I spontaneously wrote "professional twist" in my last message. After a second thought I decided to check WR for this... Would that carry the meaning?
     

    broglet

    Senior Member
    English - England
    "Déformation professionelle" is actually a rather amusing pun. It is taken from "formation professionelle" (= professional training) and what it suggests is that whereas training prepares you for the job, the job itself renders you unprepared for real life (eg by causing you to talk in jargon)

    There is no real equivalent in English, but Kelly B's "hazard of the profession" and "professional quirk" could be effectively used.

    I think Gordo's suggestion to use "déformation professionelle" without translation would leave most non-francophones mystified (and quite a few non-native francophones too!)

    (Nil-the-Frogg's "professional twist" sounds to me like an excellently performed 60s dance, or some lemon inserted into a cocktail by a good barman :) )
     

    polaire

    Senior Member
    English, United States
    I liked French4Beth's hazard of the profession; professional quirk also comes to mind.
    [...]
    Edit based on RuK's post: it comes (or goes?) with the job.
    So far, French4Beth's seems the most fitting.

    As I think she pointed out above, the expression is used after someone makes a statement that betrays his or her professional training.
     
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    polaire

    Senior Member
    English, United States
    "Déformation professionelle" is actually a rather amusing pun. It is taken from "formation professionelle" (= professional training) and what it suggests is that whereas training prepares you for the job, the job itself renders you unprepared for real life (eg by causing you to talk in jargon)
    Well, hazard of the profession isn't negative.

    "Occupational hazard" means the same thing.
     
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    polaire

    Senior Member
    English, United States
    Above they say that this is not necessarily pejorative - don't you agree with that (since "warping" and "perversion" are certainly pejorative)?

    Right, timpeac, it's not negative. It's more a person has been so shaped by his/her work that s/he automatically employs those skills even outside of work.

    Off-duty detective, noting another person's sandy shoes:

    "Have you been out walking on the beach? Sorry -- [It's an] occupational hazard."
     

    timpeac

    Senior Member
    English (England)
    I know I shouldn't say this, then, but in this case I stand by my own suggestion of "that's xxxxs for you" then;).

    "He can't stand people smoking at the next table."
    "That's doctors for you!".
     
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    Kelly B

    Senior Member
    USA English
    This is sliding further from the professional notion, but
    it goes with the territory.
     

    polaire

    Senior Member
    English, United States
    "that's xxxxs for you then";).
    "He can't stand people smoking at the next table."
    "That's doctors for you!".
    I've never heard that expression.

    Personally, I'd understand your example if I modified it to:
    "He can't stand people smoking at the next table."
    "That's what practicing medicine for 20 years does to you!".
     
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    geve

    Senior Member
    France, French
    I like Kelly's "It comes with the job". Wouldn't it make a good AE equivalent to BE "That's doctors for you"?

    "Déformation professionelle" is actually a rather amusing pun. It is taken from "formation professionelle" (= professional training) and what it suggests is that whereas training prepares you for the job, the job itself renders you unprepared for real life (eg by causing you to talk in jargon)
    Your interpretation is interesting, but I must admit I had never spotted the potential pun in it. I read it as "déformation": your vision of things is altered - "professionnelle": by your job.
     

    timpeac

    Senior Member
    English (England)
    But, one can say "professional deformation." It is indeed said in English.
    I'm really interested by this. I see that it was claimed above that this is said in English, and a googling certainly supports that while this is not a common phrase it does indeed exist in English, on occasion, without glossing. Would the French phrase be generally understood by Francophones? If so, despite the occasional existence of English "professional deformation", I would say that this cannot be an adequate translation of the French since it is sufficiently obscure as to be impenetrable to most English speakers (or, fellow Anglophones, is this just a gap in my vocab?)
     

    polaire

    Senior Member
    English, United States
    "Professional deformation" sounds horrible in American English. It conjures up an image of a deformed or disfigured person.

    We don't use "formation" in American English, so "deformation" wouldn't be appreciated as a comment on that word.
     
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    timpeac

    Senior Member
    English (England)
    Same in BE - at least to my ears - but from what Geve says above, she doesn't feel that "déformation" in French is a, well, deformation of "formation" so the fact we say "training" rather than "formation" in English (BE as well as AE from what you say) doesn't really reflect on whether we could, or should, talk of "deformation". (Just to make clear the nuances of "deform" in English (at least to my understanding) to those who may not be sure - it means "to bend out of shape", quite a physical and negative meaning - animals (or, cruelly, people) who are born different might be described by some people as "deformed").
     
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    polaire

    Senior Member
    English, United States
    Oh, forgot about that earlier post. Thanks. :)
     
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    Icetrance

    Senior Member
    US English
    I'm really interested by this. I see that it was claimed above that this is said in English, and a googling certainly supports that while this is not a common phrase it does indeed exist in English, on occasion, without glossing. Would the French phrase be generally understood by Francophones? If so, despite the occasional existence of English "professional deformation", I would say that this cannot be an adequate translation of the French since it is sufficiently obscure as to be impenetrable to most English speakers (or, fellow Anglophones, is this just a gap in my vocab?)
    I agree. I wouldn't use "professional deformation" as a translation either.
    I would say "occupational habit."

    These are the (negative) traits acquired by working in a certain profession.
     

    Nil-the-Frogg

    Senior Member
    Français (France)
    animals (or, cruelly, people) who are born different might be described by some people as "deformed").
    The French equivalent would be "difforme", then... "Un être difforme", "un animal difforme"...

    I suppose that's such a meaning that made me think about "twist".
     

    A day in Eireann

    Senior Member
    France - French
    Or you have the dictionary suggestions of :

    professional bias
    vocational bias
    vocational idiosyncrasy
    professional idiosyncrasy
    professional kink
    job conditionning
     

    polaire

    Senior Member
    English, United States
    Or you have the dictionary suggestions of :
    professional bias
    vocational bias
    vocational idiosyncrasy
    professional idiosyncrasy
    professional kink
    job conditionning​
    None of these sound natural in English to me, sorry.
     
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    Icetrance

    Senior Member
    US English
    Or you have the dictionary suggestions of :
    professional bias
    vocational bias
    vocational idiosyncrasy
    professional idiosyncrasy
    professional kink
    job conditionning​
    Thanks for these translations

    Honestly, I don't care for any of them.

    I'm sticking with "occupational habit."

    As I always learned during my translation studies: Don't get stuck in "interlanguage."
     
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    Nicomon

    Senior Member
    Français, Québec ♀
    None of these sound natural in English to me, sorry.
    I agree that most don't sound natural. However "professional bias", which comes naturally to me, is certainly not unusual. I definitely wouldn't count this one as "interlanguage".

    "Professional deformation" on the other hand is indeed horrible. :eek:

    I associate "hazard" to risque, so any expression using "hazard" doesn't work for me. But I like "that's doctors for you" or "it comes with the job".
     

    Gil

    Senior Member
    Français, Canada
    I agree that most don't sound natural. However "professional bias", which comes naturally to me, is certainly not unusual. I definitely wouldn't count this one as "interlanguage".
    Salut! D'accord!:)
     
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    A day in Eireann

    Senior Member
    France - French
    I agree that most don't sound natural. However "professional bias", which comes naturally to me, is certainly not unusual. I definitely wouldn't count this one as "interlanguage".
    I prefer to go for "that's .... for you " too when the style is colloquial enough, or also for something such as " I'm a detective , what else can you expect ? / He's a doctor so ... ;) "
    But as this posting went on and on, I thought I'd add the dictionary listings, just for teh sake of it.
    I do use and have often seen professional bias/habit/
    and an expression I can not recall
     
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    Icetrance

    Senior Member
    US English
    I agree that most don't sound natural. However "professional bias", which comes naturally to me, is certainly not unusual. I definitely wouldn't count this one as "interlanguage".

    "Professional deformation" on the other hand is indeed horrible. :eek:

    I associate "hazard" to risque, so any expression using "hazard" doesn't work for me. But I like "that's doctors to you" or "it comes with the job".
    I don't think this is about "bias" either (although not "interlanguage", I admit. I skipped over that one. LOL).

    déformation professionelle:
    to become increasingly moulded into a certain profession's mindset over time, separating the individual from society to some degree (negative connotation).

    I might say: profession-shaped mindset/mentality
     
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    broglet

    Senior Member
    English - England
    I agree that most don't sound natural. However "professional bias", which comes naturally to me, is certainly not unusual. I definitely wouldn't count this one as "interlanguage".

    "Professional deformation" on the other hand is indeed horrible. :eek:

    I associate "hazard" to risque, so any expression using "hazard" doesn't work for me. But I like "that's doctors for you" or "it comes with the job".
    I think there is general agreement that "professional deformation" is horrible, wrong and just won't do. "Professional bias", on the other hand, is good English but it has an entirely different meaning from "déformation professionnelle", so that won't do either.
    Icetrance's "profession-shaped mindset/mentality" might work in AE, but it would sound odd in EE, and it too has the wrong meaning. I have only ever heard "déformation professionelle" used to describe a behaviour, not a mindset.
    In an attempt to preserve some of the punning aspect of the original French, one could try something like: "The man's a teacher. He always talks in a stentorian voice; it's a professional disability".
    But, without the pun, I like Icetrance's "occupational habit" ... and also timpeac's "that's doctors for you".
     

    Nicomon

    Senior Member
    Français, Québec ♀
    "Professional bias", on the other hand, is good English but it has an entirely different meaning from "déformation professionnelle", so that won't do either.
    I don't agree there. It all depends on your personal interpretation of "déformation" or "bias".

    My point was mainly that "professional bias" is not "non natural". In my opinion « déformation professionnelle » can be both "professional bias" or "professional/occupational habit" and I like your "professional disability":thumbsup: for a pun.

    "The man's a teacher. He always talks in a stentorian voice; it's a professional disability". This man's talking in stentorian voice is an "occupational habit"... "that's teachers for you"/ "it comes with the job".

    But also... (as Geve rightly said - post #35)... his vision of things can be altered by his profession. He can't have an impartial opinion. Bias as in "a particular tendency or inclination, esp. one that prevents impartial consideration of a question; prejudice." (Webster's).

    This is how the GDT defines « déformation professionnelle », with suggested translation "professional bias".

    Définition :
    État d'esprit qui, sous l'influence du milieu ou de la discipline de travail, incite l'homme à consacrer exclusivement son attention aux choses de son métier ou de sa profession et aux changements qui en découlent, d'où il résulte que la réalité est altérée, parce que des faits essentiels échappent à son attention.
    État d'esprit qui incite une personne à prendre des attitudes propres à son activité professionnelle ou de travail, même en des domaines qui ne s'y rapportent pas.
     

    Icetrance

    Senior Member
    US English
    L'État d'esprit qui incite une personne à prendre des attitudes propres à son activité professionnelle ou de travail, même en des domaines qui ne s'y rapportent pas.

    D'où donc ma traduction "profession-based mindset/mentality"

    You take your job everywhere with you (habits, mindset)

    I proposed two translations:

    occupational habit
    profession-based mindset/mentality

    I'm a little torn between them, but I'd opt for the latter at this point in time. Je pense bien que "mindset" sous-entendrait
     

    Nicomon

    Senior Member
    Français, Québec ♀
    You're a little torn, because « déformation professionnelle » can be interpreted both ways, as per this less convoluted definition (TLFI)

    Déformation professionnelle. Fait de transposer dans la vie courante des habitudes ou des manières de penser acquises dans l'exercice d'une profession
    imho "profession-based mindset/mentality" (what happened of "shaped"?) is a defining phrase, something like "état d'esprit induit par/issu de la profession".

    What we need to translate here is "déformation"
    Incidentally... Robert & Collins suggest "job conditioning"

    So between
    - professional bias (as in "inclination towards")
    - professional/occupational habit
    - job conditioning
    - that's xyz for you / it comes with the job

    we should have enough to work with... and adapt to context.;) :)
     

    Icetrance

    Senior Member
    US English
    Désolé. Je voulais dire "profession-shaped mindset/mentality" LOL:).

    Traduire comme ça, c'est me donner mal au cerveau, mais de façon plaisante.

    J'accepterais en fait "job conditioning" comme une traduction décente.

    J'ai enfin atteint un compromis, Nicomon!
     
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    worldwanderer

    Senior Member
    England and Romania
    I think that the literal translation 'professional deformation' is now accepted in English. I tend to hear it in more formal contexts, but I still hear it used like that from time to time. People seem to know what it means.. but timpeac's suggestion of 'that's doctors for you' etc.. would convey the same message, in a more colloquial tone, and you definitely hear that more often. If you google 'professional deformation' you may get some interesting results, studies etc..
     

    Icetrance

    Senior Member
    US English
    I know it is used in contemporary English. I know I've heard it used in a sociological context. So, it is indeed a correct translation, but I'm not sure if I'd use it outside of academia, or for the general public for that matter. But, it's not at all wrong.

    Au choix, mon ami(e):

    professional deformation
    job conditioning
    profession-shaped mindset/mentality
     
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