1. pepskrik Senior Member

    france / francais
    hello everyone !
    how would you say "une dérive sectaire " meaning the sects take advantage of some situations to attract people.
    "sectarien ???"
    need your inputs....
  2. archijacq Senior Member

    french France
    sectarian drift
  3. bh7 Senior Member

    Limestone City
    Canada; English
    the drifting away to various sects of members of mainline religious [Christian, Muslim, ...] communities
  4. pepskrik Senior Member

    france / francais
    Thank both of you....
  5. Parigigi Senior Member

    France, French
    Sectarian excesses.
  6. bh7 Senior Member

    Limestone City
    Canada; English
    Also: sectarian abuses, but the original question specifically was about actions taken by newish religious groups trying to attract adherents. I suppose they wouldn't attract many converts by excesses and abuses.
  7. Ami6 Senior Member

    France, French
    sectarian deviation - or sectarian deviance - or sectarian abuse
    (modeled after sexual deviation or deviance).

    The idea of the French expression, meant as an improvement on previous governement strategies judged to be a discrimination against the people and the groups themselves, is to castigate behavior, as opposed to the people or groups persay ...

    The whole enterprise is still controversial because of the obvious anticonstitutionality of governmental discrimination among citizens. It would have made sense to denounce such deviance in all groups, not just some of them, since the same behavior by large traditional religions is seen positively, but when newer, smaller, less mainstream groups are concerned, they are labelled "deviant"... having drifted away (litteral meaning of "dérive") from integrity.
  8. Moon Palace

    Moon Palace Senior Member

    I am not sure I would say dérive is anything like deviance, because deviance refers to something differing from the norm, whereas dérive points to a negative / nefarious shift in attitudes, ie a drift. I would back archi's sectarian drift.
  9. Ami6 Senior Member

    France, French
    Well, I would argue that "drift" and "deviance" both describe a similar process of branching away from the mainstream, so they're both acceptable translations.
    What is being reproached to these groups, has to do indeed with "differing from the norm", as you put it Moon Palace. There's a famous university professor in Belgium, a woman called Anne Morelli, who has documented many examples of the same behavior being considered quite acceptable in mainstream religions, but not in the small religions or spiritual minorities labelled as cults: this proves that "differing from the norm" is what is being criticized, by the opponents of these minorities.
    This is why I personally prefer the English word "deviance", which also reflects dérive's negative connotation ...
  10. Moon Palace

    Moon Palace Senior Member

    I still tend to think dérive and déviance (the word also exists in French and has the same definition) are two slightly different things:
    dérive refers to a movement away from the norm, whereas déviance refers to a behaviour that is deemed to differ from the norm. This difference is important insofar as dérive usually refers to sth that is in the making, showing a direction, whereas déviance points to a result.
    Dérive sectaire
  11. Ami6 Senior Member

    France, French
    C'est bien ce que je disais, tout ce qui est écrit sur le site de la Miviludes (lien vers le terme "déviance sectaire") peut très bien s'appliquer aux communautés monastiques catholiques, ou aux sociétés secrètes maçonniques, qui pourtant ne sont pas inquiétées par cet organisme d'état.
    D'après les définitions par tes liens, "dérive" et "déviance" me semblent effectivement très proches. La définition de "dérive sectaire" donnée par la Miviludes fait rentrer dans un univers mental paranoïaque, propice à installer la méfiance, la peur, l'intolérance et la discrimination, fondée sur l'ignorance de la religion de l'autre, dans une société, surtout lorsque ces préjugés sont véhiculés par une instance gouvernementale, censée faire autorité.
    De toutes façons, c'est un terme à manier donc avec la plus grande prudence, voire même à éviter, si l'on souhaite que ses propos soient facteurs de paix et de concorde.
  12. JeanDeSponde

    JeanDeSponde Senior Member

    France, Lyon area
    France, Français
    Amy6, le but de la question n'est pas de discuter de la validité ou non de la notion de dérive sectaire, mais de la traduire.

    La dérive sectaire ne désigne pas les manoeuvres des sectes pour attirer le client, mais la dérive de certaines personnes ou de certains groupes vers des comportements dangereux de type sectaire.
    Dérive sectaire et dérive d'une secte n'ont pas le même sens.

    Yes Archi, as usual. See also e.g. nationalist drift.
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2010
  13. Wodwo Senior Member

    London UK
    UK English
    The trouble with 'drift', which was my first thought too, is that it sounds rather slow and lacking in energy, whereas a 'dérive' is a rather wilder affair.

    A 'sectarian drift' sounds like something you wouldn't worry about too much - a lot of people wandering rather listlessly towards a meeting in which most of the audience fall asleep. Also, I don't think it's the idiom we use. I think we would be more likely to say 'the slide into sectarianism', which has more of the helter-skelter about it, a bit like dérive.
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2014
  14. antorcan Senior Member

    English - Jamaica and Canada
    Dérive sectaire is used not just in relation to sects and cults but is being applied in a figurative sense to any small group, clan, club, movement, commune, gang.

    So it could very well be used in the context of political extremism and radicalization.

    I prefer to translate dérive by "excesses" or "abuse".

    So you probably have to vary the translation.
    E.g. Cult excesses, gang members' abuse, excesses of right wing extremists, abusive incidents instigated by the movement's guru.

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