Damn (the verb to damn)

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eno2

Senior Member
Dutch-Flemish
Hello

WR has only the potentially offensive adj, adv, interjection, but I made a little excursion in the verb to damn, given the subtitle stuff I'm involved in.
The verb would be used mostly in the passive and that would be καταρώμαι,/καταριέμαι. είμαι καταραμένος= I'm damned.
I encountered also διαβολοστέλνω, somewhere, meaning: to damn.
To my surprise, in WR, καταδικάζω, is also given the meaning of 'to damn . :confused: There are no example of use... I suppose it's better not to think of using καταδικάζω as 'to damn'.
διαβολοστέλνω has no own entry in WR but it's in Wiktionary: <στέλνω κάποιον στο διάβολο, του λέω να "πάει στο διάβολο">
Did I conclude to something wrong here from my searches in 'to damn' or are they incomplete?
 
  • sotos

    Senior Member
    Greek
    it seems that "to damn" has many meanings in english, including "to condemn, to criticize strongly" etc. In view of those meanings, the καταδικάζω (in the sense of criticism) can be one of the many greek equivalents.
     

    eno2

    Senior Member
    Dutch-Flemish
    Definition of damn in English:
    damn
    VERB

    [WITH OBJECT]
    • 1be damned(in Christian belief) be condemned by God to suffer eternal punishment in hell.
      ‘I treated her badly and I'll be damned to hell for it’
      More example sentences
      1. 1.1Be doomed to misfortune or failure.

        ‘the enterprise was damned’
        More example sentences
        Synonyms
      [*][*]2Criticize strongly.
      ‘the book damns her husband’
      More example sentences
      Synonyms
      1. 2.1Curse (someone or something)

        ‘she cleared her throat, damning it for its huskiness’
        ‘damn him for making this sound trivial’
      [*]
      damn | Definition of damn by Lexico. I was working around the curse/

      κατάρα
      meanings. I(Meaning 1 and 1.2.1) I'm sure that doesn't fit καταδικάζω. But the 'condemn /καταδικάζω semantic field is something I should look into apart.
     
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    sotos

    Senior Member
    Greek
    Καταδικάζω doesn't necessarily mean something as grave as sending someone to hell or to prison. It may refer to a slightly negative or even neutral (and sometimes -ironically- positive) judgment/decision, and needs careful syntax in Greek. For example, "αυτός ο νόμος καταδικάζει σε αδράνεια την προηγούμενη συμφωνία ..." (which may not be of deadly importance).

    In the sense of strong negative criticism, usually we say καταδικάζω the ACTS of a person, but not the person himself. The above example "the book damns her husband", without further context, would be misunderstood if translated as "το βιβλίο καταδικάζει το σύζυγό της. (full-stop)". In greek needs further context to explain the nature of damnation, such as "καταδικάζει her husband for his declaration ... (but this is her personal opinion and is debatable)". If it comes without other explanation, it may be understood that "καταδικάζει her husband (so that something bad happens to him, as if the book can be used as a proof of a crime)".
     

    ioanell

    Senior Member
    Greek
    The verb would be used mostly in the passive and that would be καταρώμαι,/καταριέμαι. είμαι καταραμένος= I'm damned.
    Note that καταρώμαι (Ancient > archaic, used by scholars of older times) / and καταριέμαι (Modern Greek), meaning “to curse, to cast an evil spell on, to anathematise”, is in both forms a deponent verb, that is morphologically is only in the passive voice, but active in terms of disposition and transitive.

    καταραμένος: Although there is no verb of passive disposition meaning “to have received a curse myself, to have been cast an evil spell” and a periphrasis is always used either in an active or in a passive construction accordingly, there is a passive voice and disposition present perfect participle καταραμένος, -η, -ο (and archaic form “κατηραμένος”), meaning “cursed, damned, etc.”
     

    eno2

    Senior Member
    Dutch-Flemish
    καταριέμαι (Modern Greek), meaning “to curse, to cast an evil spell on, to anathematise”, is in both forms a deponent verb, that is morphologically is only in the passive voice, but active in terms of disposition and transitive.
    Does that mean they have only a passive mode/voice (Voice = form??? and mode is function???) but are used in an active way? (If I find examples I'll post them)

    <αποθετικά ρήματα λέγονται όσα έχουν μόνο μέση φωνή, όπως δέχομαι. έρχομαι>
    What does that mean precisely, αποθετικά? That they can only be used medium passively or that they have only a μέση φωνή FORM but can be used actively also?
    I'm confused by mode/voice/form....
    I'd better repeat grammar first and abstain from questions grammatical....
     

    Perseas

    Senior Member
    <αποθετικά ρήματα λέγονται όσα έχουν μόνο μέση φωνή, όπως δέχομαι. έρχομαι>
    What does that mean precisely, αποθετικά? That they can only be used medium passively or that they have only a μέση φωνή FORM but can be used actively also?
    In Modern Greek there are two voices, the active and the passive. The active verbs end in -ω and passive in -μαι.

    Αποθετικά are the passive-only verbs, which have only passive forms. For example, δέχομαι; the form δέχω does not exist.
    They can be used as active or middle (as far as disposition is concerned).

    For example: αισθάνομαι κάτι (Ι feel something) --> αισθάνομαι is αποθετικό (only passive forms) and is used as active (disposition).
    Another example: εργάζομαι ως δάσκαλος (I work as a teacher) -->εργάζομαι is αποθετικό (only passive forms) and is used as a middle (disposition).
     
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    Perseas

    Senior Member
    And 'middle' means medio-passive?
    No.

    Modern Greek has two voices: active (-ω) & passive (-μαι). Βλέπω is active, λυπάμαι is passive.
    Modern Greek has four dispositions: active (the subject of the verb is doing an action), passive (the subject receives the action of the verb), middle (the subject does something which goes back to the subject) and neutral (the subject is in a state).
     

    ioanell

    Senior Member
    Greek
    In the following thread you will find very useful information in posts by Perseas and dmtrs.
    μέσα και αποθετικά ρήματα


    Does that mean they have only a passive mode/voice (Voice = form??? and mode is function???) but are used in an active way?
    A rough explanation of the (medio)passive voice is that the verbs belonging to it, in terms of the form we write and pronounce them, have the ending -μαι in the 1st person singular of the present tense. Consequently, voice = external form of the verb, its icon.

    Mode or disposition is a quality of the verb by which it shows whether its subject acts (active) or is the recipient of an action by sb/sth else (passive) or simply is in a certain state (neutral). Consequently, mode or disposition = function.

    What does that mean precisely, αποθετικά? That they can only be used medium passively or that they have only a μέση φωνή FORM but can be used actively also?
    “Αποθετικά” (deponent in English) are the verbs which are only passive in form, but solely active in sense/mode, which means that their subject acts either transitively (with an object, e.g. δέχομαι κάτι=I receive something) or intransitively (without one, e.g. έρχομαι=I come/I am coming). They were named so, “αποθετικά”, by scholars of the Alexandrian Times, because they wrongly thought that these verbs did have some time in the past an active voice, but they dropped it later (ἀπέθεντο < ἀποτίθημι=drop) and retained just the passive one; that is, they believed that the verb “ἔρχομαι” did really have once an active form “ἔρχω”, but dropped it later.
     

    eno2

    Senior Member
    Dutch-Flemish
    Iεργάζομαι is αποθετικό (only passive forms) and is used as a middle (disposition).
    My confusion stemmed from terminology, I think I've got the English one right now.

    There are two voices
    Active voice and medio passive voice. (that's what I thought of as passive voice but it's called medio passive voice )

    relationship of action between the subject and verb: (has this a name?) (was this sometimes called 'modes' here?) (how is that called in Greek?)
    active: subject acts
    passive: subject receives the action
    medium: subject acts and receives the action (that's what I thought of as 'reflexive') (I've also been confused between 'medium, middle and medio passive)

    No.

    Modern Greek has two voices: active (-ω) & passive (-μαι). Βλέπω is active, λυπάμαι is passive.
    Modern Greek has four dispositions: active (the subject of the verb is doing an action), passive (the subject receives the action of the verb), middle (the subject does something which goes back to the subject) and neutral (the subject is in a state).
    Ah you call that dispositions.
    And there's a 4th one (example?)

    In the following thread you will find very useful information in posts by Perseas and dmtrs.
    μέσα και αποθετικά ρήματα




    A rough explanation of the (medio)passive voice is that the verbs belonging to it, in terms of the form we write and pronounce them, have the ending -μαι in the 1st person singular of the present tense. Consequently, voice = external form of the verb, its icon.

    Mode or disposition is a quality of the verb by which it shows whether its subject acts (active) or is the recipient of an action by sb/sth else (passive) or simply is in a certain state (neutral). Consequently, mode or disposition = function.



    “Αποθετικά” (deponent in English) are the verbs which are only passive in form, but solely active in sense/mode, which means that their subject acts either transitively (with an object, e.g. δέχομαι κάτι=I receive something) or intransitively (without one, e.g. έρχομαι=I come/I am coming). They were named so, “αποθετικά”, by scholars of the Alexandrian Times, because they wrongly thought that these verbs did have some time in the past an active voice, but they dropped it later (ἀπέθεντο < ἀποτίθημι=drop) and retained just the passive one; that is, they believed that the verb “ἔρχομαι” did really have once an active form “ἔρχω”, but dropped it later.
    Ah so you call the action categories or characterizations 'modes' or dispositions. That's complete now.
    “Αποθετικά= depondant I understood already. Now I got to know also the term was Alexandrian scholar's bad. Great.
    Depondants can be transitive or intransitive. OK.
     
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    Perseas

    Senior Member
    It is called "deponent" (not "depondant" nor "dependent"). The original Latin word means "laying aside":
    Indeed. The term "deponent" verbs is borrowed from Latin grammar.
    And there's a 4th one (example?)
    Ουδέτερη διάθεση (Neutral disposition): κοιμάμαι, κάθομαι, υπάρχω.

    There is also this recent thread about "αποθετικά ρήματα":
    μέσα και αποθετικά ρήματα
     

    Αγγελος

    Senior Member
    Greek
    I am sure this has been explained before, but here is a not-so-brief summary:
    "Voice" (φωνή) is a morphological category in Greek. Verbs either end in -ω in their dictionary form (1st person singular present indicative) or in -μαι. The former are in the active voice (ενεργητική φωνή), the latter in the passive (also called middle or medio-passive) voice (παθητική, μέση, μεσοπαθητική φωνή). Their whole conjugation depends on that. Similarly, nouns have grammatical gender - meaning that they take a particular article (ο, η, or το), that they are accompanied by suitable forms of the adjective (άσπρος βράχος, άσπρη πέτρα, άσπρο χαλίκι) etc. , and their declension depends on their gender.
    Now, those grammatical categories are loosely correlated with semantic categories. Gender is loosely correlated with sex: nouns denoting male humans and animals are usually masculine in gender, nouns denoting female humans and animals are usually feminine in gender, nouns denoting inanimate things tend to be neuter in gender. And some nouns have both masculine and feminine forms, respectively denoting similar animate beings differing only in their sex: βασιλιάς/βασίλισσα, μαθητής/μαθήτρια, γάτος/γάτα... But of course, this is only a loose correlation -- αγόρι and κορίτσι are neuter, τοίχος and στέγη are masculine and feminine respectively, and βάτραχος or μύγα, though masculine and feminine respectively, in no way imply a definite sex.
    Similarly, most verbs signifyng an action done by the grammatical subject to someone or something belong to the active voice and have a correlative passive form signifying that the action is done to the grammatical subject, either by itself or by somebody or something else: thus, πλένω = Ι wash (something) and πλένομαι = Ι wash myself or I am being washed (τα ρούχα πλένονται στο πλυντήριο). The semantic relationship of the verb to its grammatical subject is traditionally called diathesis (=disposition) in Greek grammar, and four such diatheses are recognized: active, where the subject performs the action (I am eating an apple; I am running), middle, where the subject does something to or for itself (I am shaving (myself)), passive, where the subject undergoes the action (I am being shaven by the barber), and neutral, where no action is performed (I am sleeping; ασθενώ = I am sick). The reason why traditional grammar bothers with diatheses is that in Ancient Greek, the future and aorist (only) had different forms depending on whether the diathesis was middle or passive. Thus, λύομαι meant both "I untie myself" and "I get untied by somebody else", but in the aorist tense "I untied myself" was ελυσάμην and "I gοt untied by somebody else" was ελύθην! (This is a gross oversimplification; the 'middle' forms could express all sorts of subtle shades of meaning that often escape us moderns, but the passive diathesis forms were usualy truly passive in meaning.) The 'middle' forms have totally disappeared from modern Greek, leaving no traces except in the confusion of the terms denoting the passive voice.
    But just as grammatical gender of nouns only has a loose correlation with sex, so also does voice of verbs only have a loose correlation with diathesis. To be sure, the active verb ζεσταίνω does mean 'to heat something up', while its passive counterpart ζεσταίνομαι neans 'to get warm' or 'to feel hot'; but the antonym κρυώνω has no passive form (there is no *κρυώνομαι!) and means both 'to cool something' and 'to feel cold'. Similarly, καθυστερώ means both 'to delay someone' and 'to be delayed', and there is no *καθυστερούμαι. And more importantly, there are a good many verbs that only exist in the passive voice: έρχομαι, δέχομαι, σκέπτομαι, εργάζομαι, φοβάμαι, ονειρεύομαι, εκμεταλλεύομαι... Some of those verbs are even transitive (i.e. express an action doe to somebody or something), and one has to resort to synonyms or circumlocutions to express what in English would be expressed by the passive construction: 'to be accepted' is γίνομαι δεκτός, 'to be exploited' is πέφτω θύμα εκμετάλλευσης, 'to be processed' is υφίσταμαι επεξεργασία etc., as amply explained in revious comments.
    Βαριέμαι is one of these 'deponent' (αποθετικά) verbs, which only exist in the passive voice without being passive in meaning.
    The perfect participle of deponent verbs is sometimes used in a passive sense: επεξεργασμένος means 'processed', παραδεδεγμένος (from παραδέχομαι, with reduplication) means 'generally accepted', ονειρεμένος means 'dreamed of'. Βαρεμένος, hoever, does not mean 'bored' (βαριεστημένος would be the closest single-word equivalent); it means 'stricken', and, in Cretan dialect, 'pregnant'!
     

    dmtrs

    Senior Member
    Greek
    A really good analysis, indeed, Άγγελε.
    Just let me add that although you are right when you write "there is no *καθυστερούμαι", there are still some παρακείμενος (present perfect) participles that are formed as if such a verb form existed:
    καθυστερημένος, παρατημένος (I wouldn't use παρατιέμαι), ευτυχισμένος (<*ευτυχίζομαι; ), δυστυχισμένος (<*δυστυχίζομαι; ) -I bet there are plenty.
    Even some that do not seem to come straight from verbs:
    καημένος (sure relates to καίγομαι but, I believe, through καημός)
     

    dmtrs

    Senior Member
    Greek
    Also (νεο)φερμένος (nothing to do with φέρομαι), τρεγμένος (as in τρεγμένα νερά) came to my mind.
    Διαολεμένος is also incompatible with διαολίζομαι.
    And κλαμένος is αυτός που έχει κλάψει and not αυτός που έχει κλαφτεί (as it should normally be).
     

    Αγγελος

    Senior Member
    Greek
    And φαγωμένος usually means 'having eaten' and therefore 'sated', though it can also mean 'eaten' (cf. σκωροφαγωμένος = moth-eaten)
    And πιωμένος means 'drunk' in the sense of 'intoxicated', as in English.
    But the formation and use of the perfect participle is a whole 'nother story...
     

    Αγγελος

    Senior Member
    Greek
    It is perfectly normal to have perfect participles formed from verbs that do not otherwise have passive forms. Cf. κρυωμένος = κρυολογημένος, αηδιασμένος, πεθαμένος...
     

    dmtrs

    Senior Member
    Greek
    In fact, the present perfect participle in Greek (passive voice) is the equivalent to the English past participle:
    lost = χαμένος
    beaten = χτυπημένος
    cut = κομμένος
    drunk = πιωμένος
    etc.

    The past participle exists in ancient Greek, but in modern Greek is only handy (as a kind of 'relic'; not in all cases or genders; usually from passive mode, sometimes from medium) in some verbs, and in very limited and formal use: συλληφθείς, διασωθείς, ανακοινωθέν, προλαλήσαντες...
     

    eno2

    Senior Member
    Dutch-Flemish
    Equivalent, yes μετοχή αορίστου past participle

    At least the MEANINGS of the so called perfect past participle don't seem to be a problem in Greek. They're the same as the verb. In Spanish, the shift of meaning in the p.p. used as an adjective is a HUGE problem for the learner.

    I had a look at συλληφθείς , it means 'arrested' (by the police. That's not unusual....) How do you call that? A passive μετοχή?
     
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    dmtrs

    Senior Member
    Greek
    In ancient Greek it is indeed called παθητική (passive) μετοχή.
    In modern Greek it survives as just a relic, it is not considered as a form of the modern verb συλλαμβάνω, I guess you won't find it in any modern Greek Grammar.
     

    Αγγελος

    Senior Member
    Greek
    Once again, the interplay of ancient and modern Greek causes problems.
    Ancient Greek had a fully symmetric system of participles: present, future, aorist (=past) and perfect, both active and passive, all fully inflected for gender, case and number. (There were also so-called 'middle' forms for the future and aorist, but we don't want to go into that, as they have hardly left any vestiges in the modern language. We shall also ignore the future participles, and for the same reason.) For a regular verb, such as γράφω, they were formed like this:
    Present active: γράφων/γράφουσα/γράφον
     

    eno2

    Senior Member
    Dutch-Flemish
    <Perfect past participles> is even 3 words.
    μετοχή. is one word.
    The switch between English and Greek grammatical denominations is/can be confusing.
     

    eno2

    Senior Member
    Dutch-Flemish
    In ancient Greek it is indeed called παθητική (passive) μετοχή.
    In modern Greek it survives as just a relic, it is not considered as a form of the modern verb συλλαμβάνω, I guess you won't find it in any modern Greek Grammar.
    Also μετοχή παθητικού παρακειμένου - in Modern Greek.
    I'm under the impression that most reflexive and passive verbs have such a μετοχή
    σηκωμένος
     

    ioanell

    Senior Member
    Greek
    the so called perfect past participle
    ???. There is no such grammar term (or past perfect participle) in Greek, Ancient and Modern.

    I'm under the impression that most reflexive and passive verbs have such a μετοχή
    σηκωμένος
    You are right (having, of course, been clarified -in another thread, I think- that in Greek the “reflexive” verbs are called medium mode (or disposition) verbs. But, just note that many passive voice verbs don’t form this participle (e.g. αγωνίζομαι, κείτομαι, ντρέπομαι, δέχομαι, έρχομαι), whereas, on the contrary, some verbs found only in the active voice do form such a passive present perfect participle (e.g. ανθίζω>ανθισμένος).
     

    Αγγελος

    Senior Member
    Greek
    My computer ran out of power in mid-comment. Here i go again:

    Once again, the interplay of ancient and modern Greek causes problems.
    Ancient Greek had a fully symmetric system of participles: present, future, aorist (=past) and perfect, both active and passive, all fully inflected for gender, case and number. (There were also so-called 'middle' forms for the future and aorist, but we don't want to go into that, as they have hardly left any vestiges in the modern language. We shall also ignore the future participles, and for the same reason.) For a regular verb, such as γράφω, they were formed like this:
    Present active: γράφων/γράφουσα/γράφον Passive: γραφόμενος/γραφομένη/γραφόμενον
    Aorist active: γράψας/γράψασα/γράψαν Passive: γραφείς/γραφεῖσα/γραφέν
    Perfect active: γεγραφώς/γεγραφυῖα/γεγραφός Passive: γεγραμμένος/-η/-ον
    The aorist participles, both active and passive, are often used in modern Greek, even though, strictly speaking, they do not belong to its grammatical system. One often encounters phrases such as οι διατελέσαντες πρωθυπουργοί (=those who once were prime ministers), οι συλληφθέντες (= those who were arrested), η διδαχθείσα ύλη (=material actually covered in class, as opposed to η διδακτέα ύλη = material supposed to be taught), etc. The present active particiles are also used occasionally: ο γράφων (=the present writer), οι διδάσκοντες (=teaching personnel), διάττοντες αστέρες (=shooting stars)... A foreign learner would want to be able to recognize such forms, though probably not actively use them.
    Once in a very long while, even active perfect participles may be encountered: the neuter nouns γεγονός (=fact, event) and καθεστώς (=régime) are such fossilized forms, as is the adjective καθεστηκυία τάξη (=established order). Passive present and perfect participles are, of course, very much alive in the modern language. Ancient forms of the perfect passive participle, exhibiting reduplication, are also encountered: κεκλιμένο επίπεδο (=inclined plan, from κλίνω), διακεκριμένος (=distinguished, from διακρίνω), κατειλημμένος (=taken, busy, unavailable, from καταλαμβάνω) etc.
     
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