Dare, or dare to?

LV4-26

Senior Member
Hello everyone,

I've seen the thread started by whodunit about "dare"
http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=7260&highlight=dare
but it doesn't answer all my questions

Now, correct me if I'm wrong :

1. I would never have dared to use this word (correct)
2. I wouldn't dare use this word (correct ?) (grammar says it is but I've never seen it)
2b. I would never have dared use this word
(still correct ? or incorrect because too many auxiliaries in a row, so you've got to have "to" ?)

3 to 9 are imperatives
3. Dare change! (incorrect)
4. Dare to change! (correct)
5. Don't dare to approach my husband (correct)
6. Don't dare approach my husband (correct)
7. Don't you dare to approach my husband! (correct)
8. Don't you dare approach my husband! (correct)
9. Don't dare approaching my husband (incorrect ?)
(seems incorrect to me but I've seen it several times on the internet).

10. I don't dare to tell him (correct)
11. I don't dare tell him (correct)
(so you can have "don't" both with and without "to" ?)
12. I dare not tell him. (correct)

13. I dared not do it (correct)
14. I daredn't do it (incorrect ? - I've seen it, though)

You've got plenty of time to answer as I think I won't come back till tomorrow:)

Thx a lot in advance
Jean-Michel
 
  • timpeac

    Senior Member
    English (England)
    LV4-26 said:
    Hello everyone,

    I've seen the thread started by whodunit about "dare"
    http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=7260&highlight=dare
    but it doesn't answer all my questions

    Now, correct me if I'm wrong :

    1. I would never have dared to use this word (correct)Tick
    2. I wouldn't dare use this word (correct ?) (grammar says it is but I've never seen it)Tick It's fine, and spoken as well as written
    2b. I would never have dared use this wordTick absolutely fine.
    (still correct ? or incorrect because too many auxiliaries in a row, so you've got to have "to" ?)

    3 to 9 are imperatives
    3. Dare change! (incorrect):cross:
    4. Dare to change! (correct)Tick
    5. Don't dare to approach my husband (correct)Tick but I prefer 6
    6. Don't dare approach my husband (correct)Tick
    7. Don't you dare to approach my husband! (correct)Tick again I prefer 8
    8. Don't you dare approach my husband! (correct)Tick
    9. Don't dare approaching my husband (incorrect ?):cross: can't say I've heard it
    (seems incorrect to me but I've seen it several times on the internet).

    10. I don't dare to tell him (correct)Tick but I prefer 11
    11. I don't dare tell him (correct)Tick
    (so you can have "don't" both with and without "to" ?)
    12. I dare not tell him. (correct)Tick

    13. I dared not do it (correct)Tick I didn't dare do it is more normal.
    14. I daredn't do it (incorrect ? - I've seen it, though):cross: I haven't. Are you thinking of "I daren't do it" which is fine?

    You've got plenty of time to answer as I think I won't come back till tomorrow:)Well it'll be ready for you then!

    Thx a lot in advance
    Jean-Michelyou're welcome, Tim
    See answers above. I've had to write Tick as otherwise there are too many images in the post.
     

    LV4-26

    Senior Member
    Hehe, I'm still here though not for long.

    Thanks a lot Tim. Your detailed answers have been very helpful.
    I did mean "daredn't" which I'd seen on the internet. Probably on some message boards and we all know that not everything is trustworthy there. So I felt I had to ask in order to be sure.
     

    LV4-26

    Senior Member
    fetchezlavache said:
    would you guys say that you use 'to' after dare, more often than not ? or not ? ;)

    it is an american/british english difference ?
    We'll wait for their answers. But we've already got Tim's :
    He seems to prefer all the sentences without the "to". (when correct).
     

    cuchuflete

    Senior Member
    EEUU-inglés
    Dare to be different!

    You wouldn't dare!

    In the latter sentence the "to" would sound superfluous, and would weaken the emphasis.

    I don't think it's so much a matter of AE/BE/CE as what the context suggests, along with the natural cadence of the language. Care to disagree? I don't dare.

    Now, try "Care disagree? I don't dare to." That just doesn't work as well. It's a needless coda after the final crashing chord. The audience has already begun to applaud the orchestra, the concertmaster is rising to take a bow, and the oboe player
    adds a nasal "to"!
     

    LV4-26

    Senior Member
    cuchuflete said:
    Now, try "Care disagree? I don't dare to." That just doesn't work as well. It's a needless coda after the final crashing chord. The audience has already begun to applaud the orchestra, the concertmaster is rising to take a bow, and the oboe player
    adds a nasal "to"!
    I like the image. And it's perfectly clear, too.
    btw, this is against the rules, i;e;. "when the others have finished, if you've still got some notes to play on your score, don't play them":)
     

    cuchuflete

    Senior Member
    EEUU-inglés
    LV4-26 said:
    I like the image. And it's perfectly clear, too.
    btw, this is against the rules, i;e;. "when the others have finished, if you've still got some notes to play on your score, don't play them":)

    Yes Jean-Michel, but you know how daring oboe players are.;)
     

    mzg

    Senior Member
    Spain, Spanish
    Hello

    This is what my grammar book says about the use of the verb DARE. The sentences that you wrote and corrected almost agree with the rule. So for us, non natives, they might work out.

    A) The idea is that Dare is used as a modal (no -s, no "do" for questions, no "to")

    Dare you go?

    I dare go

    You daren't jump from the tree

    B) Or as an ordinary verb (-s, to, do)

    He dares to tell them what he knows about them
    Do I dare to ask?
    I don't dare to say ...

    C) Expression: I dare you to .... is used by children to challenge each other
    (A que no te atreves a...)

    D) You dare! Don't you dare! is used by mothers (this is what the grammar book says, but I guess fathers can use it too :eek: ) to discourge people/children from doing sth.

    E) I dare say... means probably

    F) How dare you? ..... is an indignant exclamation

    Hope it helps to systematise what has been said

    Bye

    María
     

    cuchuflete

    Senior Member
    EEUU-inglés
    Hi Egueule,
    It's sufficiently archaic that you forced me to lift the elbow-breaking "unabridged" from it's resting place on the floor in order to find it.

    cheers,
    Cuchu
     

    timpeac

    Senior Member
    English (England)
    cuchuflete said:
    Hi Egueule,
    It's sufficiently archaic that you forced me to lift the elbow-breaking "unabridged" from it's resting place on the floor in order to find it.

    cheers,
    Cuchu

    Yup, even on this side of the Atlantic, I agree with that.:)
     

    Cath.S.

    Senior Member
    français de France
    Thanks, Cuchu and Tim. :)
    The reason why I asked is that as a kid I learned it, along with the other irregular verbs, but never encountered it in modern writing. Thanks for setting my doubts at rest.
     

    fetchezlavache

    Senior Member
    france
    mzg said:
    Hello

    This is what my grammar book says about the use of the verb DARE. The sentences that you wrote and corrected almost agree with the rule. So for us, non natives, they might work out.

    A) The idea is that Dare is used as a modal (no -s, no "do" for questions, no "to")

    Dare you go?

    I dare go

    You daren't jump from the tree

    B) Or as an ordinary verb (-s, to, do)

    He dares to tell them what he knows about them
    Do I dare to ask?
    I don't dare to say ...

    C) Expression: I dare you to .... is used by children to challenge each other
    (A que no te atreves a...)

    D) You dare! Don't you there! is used by mothers (this is what the grammar book says, but I guess fathers can use it too :eek: ) to discourge people/children from doing sth.

    E) I dare say... means probably

    F) How dare you? ..... is an indignant exclamation

    Hope it helps to systematise what has been said

    Bye

    María


    thank you very much ! :) :D
     

    jacinta

    Senior Member
    USA English
    I just want to add that in AE it would be rare to hear, "I daren't say anything". We would say instead, " I don't dare say anything."
     

    te gato

    Senior Member
    Alberta--TGE (te gato English)
    LV4-26 said:
    Did you really mean "don't you there" ? or was it "don't you dare!"

    Thks a lot anyway.
    don't you dare!..me...to dare you!...to put an end to this daring thread..for how dare I ask such a thing of you.. after you dared to ask such a daring question...I dare not say anything more...

    tg;)
     

    mzg

    Senior Member
    Spain, Spanish
    Hi LV4

    [CODE]
    Did you really mean "don't you there" ? or was it "don't you dare!"
    [/CODE]

    Really I meant Don't you dare :) I have edited it

    Bye
     

    Lotache

    Senior Member
    French
    Hi everyone,

    Would it be correct to conclude by saying that 'to' can always be used in affirmative sentences, and can always be not used in negative sentences?

    Ta very much.
     

    walloper

    Senior Member
    Authentic Spanish from Spain
    -I can’t believe you leaked that confidential memo to the rest of the office! How ___ betray me in this fashion?

    Options:

    dare you
    daring you
    dared you
    did you dare

    I would say number 4. Am I right?

    Thank you
     

    natkretep

    Moderato con anima (English Only)
    English (Singapore/UK), basic Chinese
    No, the answer is the first option dare you.

    How dare you is a fixed phrase to express anger at the other person's actions. How did you dare? is a question about where the other person got their bravery from.

    See the W R Dictionary:

    how dare you used to express indignation.
     

    natkretep

    Moderato con anima (English Only)
    English (Singapore/UK), basic Chinese
    Hullo, walloper. Just call me Nat. :) So much easier.

    'How dare you!' used like this is always in the present tense. The only exception that I can think of is when it is a kind of free indirect speech, and even so it sounds a little strange.

    'How dared you' makes it into a question (like 'How did you dare').
     

    Negina

    Senior Member
    Hello

    This is what my grammar book says about the use of the verb DARE. The sentences that you wrote and corrected almost agree with the rule. So for us, non natives, they might work out.

    A) The idea is that Dare is used as a modal (no -s, no "do" for questions, no "to")

    Dare you go?

    I dare go

    You daren't jump from the tree

    B) Or as an ordinary verb (-s, to, do)

    He dares to tell them what he knows about them
    Do I dare to ask?
    I don't dare to say ...

    C) Expression: I dare you to .... is used by children to challenge each other
    (A que no te atreves a...)

    D) You dare! Don't you dare! is used by mothers (this is what the grammar book says, but I guess fathers can use it too :eek: ) to discourge people/children from doing sth.

    E) I dare say... means probably

    F) How dare you? ..... is an indignant exclamation

    Hope it helps to systematise what has been said

    Bye

    María

    But how do you distinguish between dare the modal verb and dare the ordinary verb? To me, it means the same thing in both cases.
     

    wandle

    Senior Member
    English - British
    But how do you distinguish between dare the modal verb and dare the ordinary verb? To me, it means the same thing in both cases.
    It does mean the same in both cases. However, there are various customary uses in which it is treated as a modal verb.
    Those situations need to be learned, in order to use the word idiomatically.

    My own view is that the use with 'to' is the default use, and therefore not wrong, but to use it in those cases where the verb is usually treated as modal would seem odd to native speakers, because it is not idiomatic.
     

    Negina

    Senior Member
    It does mean the same in both cases. However, there are various customary uses in which it is treated as a modal verb.
    Those situations need to be learned, in order to use the word idiomatically.

    My own view is that the use with 'to' is the default use, and therefore not wrong, but to use it in those cases where the verb is usually treated as modal would seem odd to native speakers, because it is not idiomatic.
    Thanks, wandle! It's actually easier now :)
     

    nemo eve walle

    Senior Member
    chinese
    9. Don't dare approaching my husband (incorrect ?):cross: can't say I've heard it
    2. I wouldn't dare use this word (correct ?) (grammar says it is but I've never seen it)Tick It's fine, and spoken as well as written
    2b. I would never have dared use this wordTick absolutely fine.

    My question:
    9. ''Don't'' is a auxiliary verb, ''dare'' is a verb, ''approach'' is a verb, so ''approach'' should be a gerund, which I think it is right in that sentence. But timpeac said never heard of it?
    2. ''Wouldn't'' is a auxiliary verb, ''dare'' is a verb, ''use'' is a verb, so ''use'' should be a gerund, ''I wouldn't dare using this word'' is more right.
    2b. ''Dared'' is a verb, ''use'' is a verb, so ''use'' should be ''using'', ''I would never have dared using this word.''

    Why isn't the verb a gerund after the verb ''dare''?
     

    timpeac

    Senior Member
    English (England)
    My question:
    9. ''Don't'' is a auxiliary verb, ''dare'' is a verb, ''approach'' is a verb, so ''approach'' should be a gerund, which I think it is right in that sentence. But timpeac said never heard of it?
    2. ''Wouldn't'' is a auxiliary verb, ''dare'' is a verb, ''use'' is a verb, so ''use'' should be a gerund, ''I wouldn't dare using this word'' is more right.
    2b. ''Dared'' is a verb, ''use'' is a verb, so ''use'' should be ''using'', ''I would never have dared using this word.''

    Why isn't the verb a gerund after the verb ''dare''?
    It's just a matter of usage. Your question seems to suggest that you think "verb + verb" always means that the second is always a gerund. This isn't always true.

    Edit - for example, in the sentence I just wrote. You could not say "*Your question seems suggesting that you think..."
     

    nemo eve walle

    Senior Member
    chinese
    Why is it wrong?
    "*Your question seems suggesting that you think...":tick:
    "*Your question seems to suggest that you think...":tick:
    "*Your question seems to be suggesting that you think...":tick:
    "*Your question seems suggest that you think...":cross:
    This is what I think.
    If it is just a matter of usage, then I think ''I like swim'' is correct?
     

    Forero

    Senior Member
    Regular dare and modal dare do not in general mean the same thing, but each has multiple meanings and some meanings are shared by both dares. The meanings of course depend on context. (Compare the use of may, can, and be able. The meanings are varied, and they overlap, but they are not in general the same.)

    Adding or removing a to after dare tends to affect whether the emphasis is on the degree of boldness (in the positive) or trepidation (in the negative) or on whether or not an action is actually carried out.

    Dare is especially unusual in that it is often used as a sort of hybrid between a regular verb and a modal auxiliary, with dare taking the form of an infinitive or past participle (a property usually outside the realm of modal verbs) but being followed by a bare infinitive (a property usually restricted to modal auxiliaries). The meaning in such constructions is the "modal" meaning, but whereas may and can are defective and get replaced with be able to as needed, dare seems to be spared some of the "defectiveness" due to its ability to "paraphrase" itself.

    The use of dare to mean something like "challenge" is always regular and transitive, and modal dare is used almost exclusively in negative and interrogative contexts, "I dare say" being one, and perhaps the only, exception.
    Hello everyone,

    I've seen the thread started by whodunit about "dare"
    http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=7260&highlight=dare
    but it doesn't answer all my questions

    Now, correct me if I'm wrong All your assessments are accurate except as noted:

    1. I would never have dared to use this word (correct)
    2. I wouldn't dare use this word (correct)
    2b. I would never have dared use this word (correct, but I would expect either a to or mention of circumstances)

    3 to 9 are imperatives
    3. Dare change! (incorrect)
    4. Dare to change! (correct)
    5. Don't dare to approach my husband (correct)
    6. Don't dare approach my husband (correct)
    7. Don't you dare to approach my husband! (correct, but I would expect mention of circumstances; to does change the meaning a little)
    8. Don't you dare approach my husband! (correct)
    9. Don't dare approaching my husband (something seems to be missing from this example, but regular dare can certainly take a gerund as direct object)
    10. I don't dare to tell him (correct, but leaves me looking for more)
    11. I don't dare tell him (correct)
    (so you can have "don't" both with and without "to" ?) Yes.
    12. I dare not tell him. (correct)

    13. I dared not do it (correct)
    14. I daredn't do it (incorrect)

    You've got plenty of time to answer as I think I won't come back till tomorrow:)

    Thx a lot in advance
    Jean-Michel
    Some correct structures seem awkward (unbalanced) without more context, such as mention of circumstances. Perhaps the structures themselves require subordinated ideas to be self contained in some sense.

    P.S. I have just noticed that the hybrid dare (infinitive dare or past participle) dared used without to) is always emphasized, as if it were an adverb, but pure modal dare does not have to be.
     
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    krk36

    New Member
    France - French
    Hi everybody,

    Can I say:

    "You dared fool me twice"
    or
    "You dared to fool me twice"

    Which one's the most accurate? thank you :)
     

    krk36

    New Member
    France - French
    In the context it is about someone who dared to lie to somebody twice .. so without the "to" (is that what you mean by a positive statement) ?
     

    Forero

    Senior Member
    In the context it is about someone who dared to lie to somebody twice .. so without the "to" (is that what you mean by a positive statement) ?
    There is nothing negative or interrogative in your sentence, so you need the to:

    You didn't dare fool me twice.:tick: [This is negative because it uses n't.]
    Did you dare fool me twice?:tick:[This is a question, so it is interrogative.]
    I didn't believe you dared fool me twice.:tick:[Notice the n't.]
    I wondered whether you dared fool me twice.:tick:[This is interrogative (indirect) because it uses whether.]
    You dared fool me twice.:cross:[This is positive, so it needs a to.]
    You dared to fool me twice.:tick:

    In this respect, modal dare works something like ever:

    You didn't ever fool me.:tick:[Negative]
    I wondered whether you ever fooled me.:tick:[Interrogative]
    You ever fooled me.:cross:[Positive]
     

    C_18

    Member
    German - Germany
    Hello,
    We said I don't dare do Xy would be fine, but could you also use the progressive?
    E.g.: a) I don't dare talk to her
    b) I don't dare talking to her

    c) I will not start to do that!
    d) I will not start doing that!

    I know the progressive concentrates on the process of the action and it is quite weird since this moment of daring is before the actual talking but does anybody have an idea why b) is not as good as d) which sounds better and right to me (maybe I am wrong?)
    Thanks!
     

    Forero

    Senior Member
    Hello,
    We said I don't dare do Xy would be fine, but could you also use the progressive?
    E.g.: a) I don't dare talk to her
    b) I don't dare talking to her
    c) I will not start to do that!
    d) I will not start doing that!

    I know the progressive concentrates on the process of the action and it is quite weird since this moment of daring is before the actual talking but does anybody have an idea why b) is not as good as d) which sounds better and right to me (maybe I am wrong?)
    Thanks!
    "Dare" in a is a hybrid modal/regular verb. The meaning is "Out of trepidation, I can't talk to her", approximately.

    There is no "progressive" in b, in which "talking to her" is the direct object of "dare". This is a transitive use of dare, not a modal use, and the meaning is "I don't chance talking to her", approximately.

    There are ambiguities in c and d that require context to resolve, and "start" is a very different verb from "dare", so discussion of the difference(s) between c and d belong in a different thread.

    EDIT: Changed "risk" to "chance" (verb) to be more accurate.
     
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    C_18

    Member
    German - Germany
    Hello,
    Thanks for your reply.
    I provided the sentences c and d because of their grammatical structure (verb + complement including a finite verb). Maybe my example was not completely helpful due to the lack of modality.
    If they are correct, a and b must be too - this was my hypothesis. Your reply has helped me understand the direct object as a unit.
    Nevertheless, I am actually hoping to get a reply to my question whether dare can be used with a direct object including an -ing form instead of the infinitive (e.g "dare talk" vs "dare talking").
    Thanks
     

    Forero

    Senior Member
    Hello,
    Thanks for your reply.
    I provided the sentences c and d because of their grammatical structure (verb + complement including a finite verb). Maybe my example was not completely helpful due to the lack of modality.
    If they are correct, a and b must be too - this was my hypothesis. Your reply has helped me understand the direct object as a unit.
    Nevertheless, I am actually hoping to get a reply to my question whether dare can be used with a direct object including an -ing form instead of the infinitive (e.g "dare talk" vs "dare talking").
    Thanks
    I hestitate to call "dare talk" a direct object since "talk" remains verb-like in the modal construction.

    But in "I don't dare talking to her", "talking to her" is the direct object of "dare", and "dare" has a transitive meaning, namely "chance": "I don't chance talking to her."

    In other words, changing "talk" to "talking" alters the meaning of "dare" from something modal like "can't with the trepidation I feel" to something transitive: "I don't chance talking to her."

    The sentence "I don't dare talking to her" is a little incomplete without the mention of circumstances or instances of some kind, but it is certainly not ungrammatical. The same is true of "I don't chance talking to her."

    EDIT: Changed "risk" to the more accurate "chance".
     
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    Loob

    Senior Member
    English UK
    a) I don't dare talk to her:confused:
    a1) I daren't talk to her:tick:
    b) I don't dare talking to her:cross:

    c) I will not/won't start to do that!:tick:
    d) I will not/won't start doing that!:tick:
     
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    adarkunicorn

    New Member
    French - switzerland
    Hello, I’m a bit confused because I have seen people saying dare can be used with a gerund (don’t you dare asking). Yet some say it can’t because it’s a semi-modal. But need is a semi-modal as well and it can be used with a gerund (the house needs cleaning). It it grammatically wrong? Or old-ish English? Or just kind of "uncommon" English?
    Thank you! :)
     

    Wordy McWordface

    Senior Member
    English - SSBE Standard British
    Don't you dare asking is incorrect, as far as I know. I have never come across this construction and it sounds very wrong to me.

    I don't think the comparison with other semi-modals is helpful here.
     
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    zaffy

    Senior Member
    Polish
    I just looked "dare" up in "Oxford Guide to English Grammar" and it says the full infinitive is AE.

    1635888295934.png
     
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    Wordy McWordface

    Senior Member
    English - SSBE Standard British
    I just looked "dare" up in "Oxford Guide to English Grammar" and says the full infinitive is AE.

    View attachment 63781
    No, it doesn't. "Americans mostly use X" does not mean that "X is AE". That's not how language works.

    If you saw the sentence "Americans mostly have coffee at breakfast time", would you conclude "Coffee is American"?
     
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