Dari: خودِ مدير صاحبه بگوین

G_mut

Senior Member
Greek, Aromanian
Hi everybody. I came across this sentence in Conversational Dari written "khud-e mudlr sAeb-a bugOyEn" in transliteration. I understand that the Colloquial Persian definite object marker رو or و is ره or ه in colloquial Dari. However, I know that گفتن doesn't take a direct object but rather an oblique object, for instance بهش بگو. Does anyone know if the above sentence is correct in colloquial Dari, or could it be a typo in the book?

Thanks a lot in advance.
 
  • Derakhshan

    Senior Member
    Arabic (BH), Persian
    را in early Persian marked the dative e.g. مرا گفت meant بهم گفت. Dari retains this usage.
     

    PersoLatin

    Senior Member
    UK
    Persian - Iran
    I’m not sure about Dari Persian exactly but if I heard that (I’m a native Persian speaker) I would understand it as :“the principal herself is the owner, tell them” with بگوین being polite informal for بگویید
     

    PersoLatin

    Senior Member
    UK
    Persian - Iran
    I believe صاحب here is suffixed to مدیر as a title of respect, مدیر صاحب.
    I see, a big difference then, so
    “Tell them it is sir himself” ???

    The sense of صاحب is not attributed to ‘classical’ Persian here, is it?
     
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    Derakhshan

    Senior Member
    Arabic (BH), Persian
    I don't know but I'd like to know as well. Suffixing of صاحب is common in the Indian subcontinent as well. Compare to English "mister" deriving from "master"
     

    PersoLatin

    Senior Member
    UK
    Persian - Iran
    Yes I know, it is often used on this forum too, but I didn’t think that sense of صاحب was also used in Afghanistan.

    Anyway I don’t know if any of this has answered the OP.
     

    Derakhshan

    Senior Member
    Arabic (BH), Persian
    “Tell them it is sir himself” ???
    Like I said, the -a here is را, not است , so it's

    خودِ مدیر را بگویید

    Or in Iranian Persian

    به خودِ مدیر بگویید

    Tell the principal/manager/whatever himself
     

    G_mut

    Senior Member
    Greek, Aromanian
    Thank you all for your replies. صاحب, according to the book, is used to convey reverence. As for the -a it is indeed the Definite Object Marker را. In the same book, talking about گفتن, there are three examples:
    1. داكتره گفت
    2. به داکتر گفت
    3. بری (برای) داکتر گفت

    According to the writer, Eugene Glassman, all three convey the same meaning, i.e. He told the doctor, but the one with the Definite Object Marker is more informal.

    As for the meaning of the original sentence, it is: Tell the manager himself as Derakhshan pointed out above.
     

    PersoLatin

    Senior Member
    UK
    Persian - Iran
    As for the -a it is indeed the Definite Object Marker را.
    i agree in this example -a has the same functionality as را but it is not the same as it. I am not 100% sure but I think development of -a, as a Definite Object Marker, precedes that of را.
     

    Derakhshan

    Senior Member
    Arabic (BH), Persian
    i agree in this example -a has the same functionality as را but it is not the same as it.
    I'm not sure why you would doubt it, Afghan -a is just like Iranian -o, and after a vowel it is -ra just like Iranian -ro. It's definitely the same as را and identical to the Iranian usage, the only difference being the retention of some dative usage (as in مرا گفت which I'm sure you know is sound Classical Persian).

    I wonder if anyone can provide the Dari translation for the sentence above, formal & informal please

    I would guess, just as someone with an interest in Dari:

    xode modir sâheb as, unâ-ra bugōyēn
    OR
    xode modir sâheb as, bugōyēnešān

    But a native speaker would have to confirm.
     

    PersoLatin

    Senior Member
    UK
    Persian - Iran
    I'm not sure why you would doubt it, Afghan -a is just like Iranian -o, and after a vowel it is -ra just like Iranian -ro. It's definitely the same as را and identical to the Iranian usage, the only difference being the retention of some dative usage (as in مرا گفت which I'm sure you know is sound Classical Persian).
    I agree with that, but what I am saying is that I don’t believe -a and its Tehrani version -é, have the same etymology, basically -a is not the contracted form of را.

    Edit: -a (DOM) is also used in many regions of Iran & in Tehran it is pronounced -é e.g.
    مرده رسید/mardé resid - the man arrived
     
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    PersoLatin

    Senior Member
    UK
    Persian - Iran
    xode modir sâheb as, unâ-ra bugōyēn
    OR
    xode modir sâheb as, bugōyēnešān
    Wouldn't sâheb get confused with the reverence sense of it here? Or would this make sense:
    xode modir sâheb sâheb as, bugōyēnešān

    But let’s wait for a native speaker.
     

    Derakhshan

    Senior Member
    Arabic (BH), Persian
    The Tehrani suffix -é isn't related to what is being discussed here. -a is not the Dari version of -é, it's the Dari version of -o.

    را basically marks direct objects that are definite.

    Iranian: ketāb-o xaridam = I bought the book.
    Dari: ketāb-a xaridam = I bought the book.
    ketāb xaridam = I bought (some) books.

    The Dari -a becomes -ra aftee a vowel - same as the Iranian -o becomes -ro after a vowel, because both are simply a colloquial pronunciation of را.

    The Tehrani -é isn't really a definite article. If it were, you would be required to use it every single time a noun is definite. But since you don't need to use it, it's just a definiteness-reinforcer.

    ketāb-o xaridam "I bought the book"
    ketābé-ro xaridam "I bought the book (which we both are familiar with or have discussed prior to this)".

    If it were a definite article then the first sentence shouldn't be grammatical.

    So, just to recap, Dari -(r)a is just Iranian -(r)o.
     
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    PersoLatin

    Senior Member
    UK
    Persian - Iran
    We are going around the circle:

    There’s no difference between ketâb-o and ketâb-ro, they are both contracted fioms of ketâb-râ, as far as I know there’s no -o suffix acting as definite article marker, in Persian of any kind.

    In Iranian Persian: دستتان را بدهید - dastetân râ bedahid is the highest register & in the following, the register reduces as you go down:
    دستت را بده - dastat râ bedé
    دستت رو بده - dastet ro bedé
    دستتو بده - dastet-o bedé
    دستو بده - dasset-o bedé (so دست/dast becomes دس/dass)

    All of the above use various forms of را & nothing else.
     

    Derakhshan

    Senior Member
    Arabic (BH), Persian
    Quote from that post:
    This only shows definiteness when an object of a verb. You CAN'T use this as a subject.

    ^That just confirms what I'm saying here. In other words, the -(r)a of Afghan Persian is the -(r)o of Iranian Persian, not the -é. There is no equivalent to -é in Afghan Persian. It's a definite object marker (را), not simply a definite marker (-é).

    Iranian pesar-é "the known, familiar boy" can be both a subject and object (in which case it will take -ro and become pesaré-ro).

    Afghan pesar-a is only a definite object - it is the equivalent of Iranian pesar-o, not pesar-é.

    Furthermore, Afghan pesar-a has the same stress as pesar-o, which is on the penultimate syllable, while in pesar-é the definite marker takes the stress. I'd already elaborated in another thread my opinion on the origin of the definite marker.

    Looking at that given example:
    Kitoba dari? do you have the book
    It's equivalent to Iranian: ketābo dāri? and formal کتاب را داری؟

    as far as I know there’s no -o suffix acting as definite article marker, in Persian of any kind.
    Not definite article, it's a definite object marker. That's the role of را in modern Persian, both Iranian and Afghani.

    Now, on to the issue of whether or not -é is the definite article of colloquial Iranian Persian. First of all, can it be considered an article when it's a clitic? Second, is there a total correspondence between English "the" and Persian -é?

    Take this sentence: "Get in the car".
    In colloquial Iranian Persian: savār-e māšin šo.

    As you can see, māšin didn't take the -é suffix. It could, but then it would be referring to a specific, mentioned car familiar to both speaker and listener, not just a specific car that happens to be visible to both people (which the listener could have even been heretofore unaware of). In English, you cannot skimp out on the "the" here, while in Persian the -é is optional to convey familiarity. This, I think, is the major functional difference between -é and "the", and why I think -é should rather be called a familiarity marker.
     
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