Dari/Afghan Persian: Use of the present tense of باشیدن

[G_mut]

Hi everybody.

I'm a bit confused about the use of the present tense of باشیدن. Youssef Saeed in his "Persian: A Comprehensive Grammar" writes: "Conjugating the verb ‘to be’ as mi-bāsham, mi-bāshi, etc. is something you will never hear in spoken Persian, and all writers known for their ‘good’ Persian will avoid it as well, but in the press or in administrative language, you will find this on every page by the dozen."

However, Dari uses it in both its spoken and written forms to express a more permanent/continuous "being condition", e.g.

تا چند بجه (ساعت) خانه می‌باشین؟
هر کس تا که قرضدار اس(ت) پریشان می‌باشه
وطن ما افغانستان است و پایتخت آن کابل می‌باشد

Considering that Dari is more conservative and has retained several older forms of the language, could this be a remnant of some earlier form of Persian? I looked around but couldn't find anything about this aspect.

 

[Qureshpor]

Generally speaking you can take the meaning as “ast” for mi-baashad

 

[PersoLatin]

باشیدن doesn’t exist, باش is derived from بودن, I’m sure some text book will contradict this.

 

[Qureshpor]

Yes it does exist in Persian prose and poetry. I have provided references in another thread.

 

[Qureshpor]

باشیدن doesn’t exist, باش is derived from بودن, I’m sure some text book will contradict this.

I hope fdb will be able to provide us with a difinitive answer.

 

[PersoLatin]

Yes it does exist in Persian prose and poetry. I have provided references in another threa

For it to exist باشید must be in the past tense & for third person singular, like خورد in خوردن but it is in subjunctive tense for second person plural.

 

[Qureshpor]

For it to exist باشید must be in the past tense & for third person singular, like خورد in خوردن but it is in subjunctive tense for second person plural.

سزارین،کمک فوری

سلام خانمی .دکترا توصیه می کنند مادرانی که زایمان سزارین داشتند بعد از زایمان هر چه زودتر راه بروند و در موقع عطسه یا سرفه کردن
دست خودشون رو روی محل عمل قرار بدند. برای 6 هفته بعد از عمل باید مراقب جای عمل شده باشیدید تا کاملا خوب شود۔

باشیدن . [ دَ ] (مص ) بودن . (ناظم الاطباء) : در تنها باشیدن وسواس غلبه کند. (کیمیای سعادت ). با چنین امانت مغفل زیستن و بیکار باشیدن ظلومی باشد و جهولی . (کتاب المعارف ). و این مصلح باشیدن اهل ایمان و سلامت باشیدن اهل ایمان از غفلت و معصیت بوی آن آب ایمان است . (کتاب المعارف ). || ایستادن . توقف کردن . ماندن . (آنندراج ). منزل کردن . اقامت داشتن . اقامت کردن . مقیم شدن . زیستن . (ناظم الاطباء) (شعوری ) : و علی بن الحسین بغرب رفت و سیزده ماه آنجا باشید. (تاریخ بخارای نرشخی ص 102). و آن را کوشک مغان [ به بخارا ] میخوانند و آنجا مغان باشیده اند. (تاریخ بخارای نرشخی ). و از بعد آن یکسال عمرولیث بنیشابور باشید غمناک و اندوهگین و پشیمان . (تاریخ بخارای نرشخی ص 105). و امیراسماعیل سه روز آنجا باشید. (تاریخ بخارای نرشخی ص 106). گفتند جوانی است صاحب وجد، و حالتی دارد و ریاضتی شگرف میکند، ابراهیم گفت مرا آنجا برید تا او را ببینم . ببردند. جوان گفت مهمان من باش ، تا سه روز آنجا باشید و مراقبت حال آن جوان کرد. (تذکرة الاولیاء عطار)
مرا تا بود امیدی که داری شاد باشیدم
چو دانستم که با خوی تو کار افتاد من رفتم

سیف اسفرنگ

و اکثر اوقات که حضرت خواجه در قصر عارفان میبودند در آن حجره می باشیدند. (انیس الطالبین نسخه ٔ خطی مؤلف ص 45). خواجه فرمودند که اینجا مصلحت باشیدن نیست زود عزیمت راه حج کردند. (انیس الطالبین ص 107). چند روز در بخارا باشیدم و بضرورت بطرف نسف با اندوه و بار و قبض عظیم متوجه شدم . (انیس الطالبین ص 130). آنگاه سلطان اشارت کرد که این مرد را بخانه ٔخود گسیل کنند که من بعد باشیدن او در اینجا مصلحت نیست . (دولتشاه در شرح حال ذوالفقار شیروانی ). || شدن . صیرورة. (فرهنگ شعوری ج 1 ص 180). || در فرهنگ ناظم الاطباء بمعنی پایمال کردن و پاسپردن نیز آمده است اما این معنی مخصوص آن فرهنگ است​

 

[PersoLatin]

For it to exist باشید must be in the past tense & for third person singular, like خورد in خوردن but it is in subjunctive tense for second person plural.

That’s the definitive rule and there’s no getting away from it, I can’t not comment on cases where the rules are broken.

 

[Qureshpor]

That’s the definitive rule and there’s no getting away from it, I can’t not comment on cases where the rules are broken.

Did you not find باشید that is to say 3rd person singular in the examples provided?

 

[PersoLatin]

Did you not find باشید that is to say 3rd person singular in the examples provided?

I don’t understand this comment.
We only have: باشم باشی باشد باشیم باشید باشند and باش these are the only legal uses & they are in subjunctive tense, you can not make a definitive form from the subjunctive tense.

The first example is written in a colloquial style & if I may sayو full of mistakes, I believe “باشیدید” which you have shown in bold, is a typo & was meant to be “باشید"،

باشیدید sounds so wrong I just can’t believe someone would use it, but hey who am I to complain, people are free to use the language the way they want.

 

[Qureshpor]

I don’t understand this comment.

و علی بن الحسین بغرب رفت و سیزده ماه آنجا باشید. (تاریخ بخارای نرشخی ص 102)

What does باشید link with? علی بن الحسین

 

[PersoLatin]

و علی بن الحسین بغرب رفت و سیزده ماه آنجا باشید. (تاریخ بخارای نرشخی ص 102)

What was wrong with بود, the context actually makes باشید look even more wrong. The number of occurrences of this mistake in the above examples, doesn't make a case for its correctness.

 

[Qureshpor]

What was wrong with بود, the context actually makes باشید look even more wrong. The number of occurrences of this mistake in the above examples, doesn't make a case for its correctness.

Well, I am sure the authors of these classical works knew their language pretty well, most likely better than most of us. If you read the LuGhat-Naameh entry, you will understand the nuances of baashiidan.

 

[PersoLatin]

For it to exist باشید must be in the past tense & for third person singular, like خورد in خوردن but it is in subjunctive tense for second person plural.

When this rule is proved to be wrong or you found a statement that says this is flexible enough to allow a change (mutation) in its DNA, then we have something solid to work on. In the mean time please look for uses of this 'verb' in other tenses, e.g. باشیده بودم/ام or خواهم باشید, or tell me the equivalent of it in this example شاید رفته باشد. A Persian verb must have uses for other tenses too.

 

[Qureshpor]

When this rule is proved to be wrong or you found a statement that says this is flexible enough to allow a change (mutation) in its DNA, then we have something solid to work on. In the mean time please look for uses of this 'verb' in other tenses, e.g. باشیده بودم/ام or خواهم باشید, or tell me the equivalent of it in this example شاید رفته باشد. A Persian verb must have uses for other tenses too.

I have added what I could and I shall terminate this discussion here. I can see it is not going anywhere.

 

[G_mut]

I have added what I could and I shall terminate this discussion here. I can see it is not going anywhere.

Thank you all for your replies and help, but I feel bad about the controversy generated by my query. I'm not a native speaker, but according to this معنی باشیدن | لغت‌نامه دهخدا باشیدن does exist. Given that I study Dari, where only the present tense, می‌باشم، می‌باشی, etc., is used to indicate an extended duration of being or even stay or waiting, I just wanted to know if this use is a remnant of an older form of Persian, like several others, retained in Afghan Persian.

 

[Qureshpor]

Thank you all for your replies and help, but I feel bad about the controversy generated by my query. I'm not a native speaker, but according to this معنی باشیدن | لغت‌نامه دهخدا باشیدن does exist. Given that I study Dari, where only the present tense, می‌باشم، می‌باشی, etc., is used to indicate an extended duration of being or even stay or waiting, I just wanted to know if this use is a remnant of an older form of Persian, like several others, retained in Afghan Persian.

No need to feel bad @G_mut. PersoLatin and I are friends and not enemies. We can have a difference in opinion and we respect each other for that. PersoLatin is a mother-tongue speaker of Persian and I am just someone who has a little interest in the Persian language.

"baashiidan" does carry the meaning of "staying/remaining" but in its everyday present tense usage, it just carries the meaning of the verb "to be" in the habitual sense (am, is, are). I am not sure if it has the meaning of "extended duration" as you put it.

The root for "baashiidan" is "baash" whereas for "buudan" it is "buv" (pronounced "bov" by Modern Persian speakers) as in "buv-am/buv-em" (Modern Persian pronunciation "buv-iim"), "buv-ii/buv-ed" (Modern Persian pronunciation "buv-iid"), "buv-ad/buv-and". This conjugation is seldom used in the modern language these days. Instead, one has hastam/hastiim etc and mii-baasham/mii-baashiim etc.

I wouldn't get too tangled up with all this.