Daughter vs. Persian Dough

shannenms

Senior Member
Persian
As far as I know the etymology of Daughter goes back to Sanskrit Dough which means "milking". I wonder if it has some relation to Persian Dough (a kind of drink which is produced by mixing water and yoghurt).
I guess this etymology is maybe on account of this fact that little girls at the past were asked to milk a cow:confused:
What's your idea?
 
  • Athaulf

    Senior Member
    Croatian/Bosnia, Croatia
    As far as I know the etymology of Daughter goes back to Sanskrit Dough which means "milking". I wonder if it has some relation to Persian Dough (a kind of drink which is produced by mixing water and yoghurt).
    I guess this etymology is maybe on account of this fact that little girls at the past were asked to milk a cow:confused:
    What's your idea?

    If you're referring to the English word "daughter", it comes straight from Proto-Indo-European via Proto-Germanic, and has cognates in numerous IE languages, apparently including Persian. It definitely didn't come from Sanskrit, and it would certainly be very odd if it did -- it would be as if, for example, Bengali had a word for "daughter" coming from Homeric Greek! :D However, Sanskrit does have a word for "daughter" that developed from the same Proto-IE root.

    I have no idea about the etymology of the Persian word you mention, but considering the above facts, the only way in which the "milking" theory might make sense would be if someone plausibly argued that this Proto-IE root developed from some older word with the meaning of "milking". I have no idea if anyone ever presented a serious argument along these lines, so it would be interesting too see some references about it.
     

    shannenms

    Senior Member
    Persian
    W. Skeat says, after presenting many cognates, daughter has a Sanskrit root, which means milking.
    Thanks.
     

    Asgaard

    Member
    usa, english
    Hi,

    Is it possible that 'dau_ghter' be derived from PIE dha_gʷeter?
    dha - have, possess
    gʷet-er/n- womb, belly, chest





    Asgaard
     

    Frank06

    Senior Member
    Nederlands / Dutch (Belgium)
    Hi,
    As far as I know the etymology of Daughter goes back to Sanskrit Dough which means "milking".
    Looks new to me, but where did you find this?
    As far as I know, Old Indian has duhitár-, Avestan has dugǝdar-, duɣdar-. Since reflexes of the PIE root *dhug(h)əter (or *dhuga-t-er-) can be found back in quite a few IE languages, then why would we need Sanskrit to explain this word?

    I wonder if it has some relation to Persian Dough (a kind of drink which is produced by mixing water and yoghurt).
    No idea about Sanskrit dough and Persian dough (but it's yummie any which way!)


    Is it possible that 'dau_ghter' be derived from PIE dha_gʷeter?
    dha - have, possess
    gʷet-er/n- womb, belly, chest

    I don't think so. The sound changes would be impossible to explain. While the widely accepted PIE root *dhug(h)əter (or *dhuga-t-er-) doesn't pose that problem.
    By the way, how do you arrive at *dha- have and *gʷeter/n- womb?

    Groetjes,

    Frank
     

    shannenms

    Senior Member
    Persian
    Thomas Bellot almost confirms this by putting Daughter in the list of English words taken from Sanskrit ( maybe he is wrong, I don't want to stick to it!).
    He says:Sanskrit Duhitri is duh + tri
    Duh: means to milk, in this sense it is the same as Persian dush, which I think Persian dough has come from.
    tri: suffix of agency.
    Actually, i don't mean it is derived from Sanskrit, I meant the oldest evidence I have found is its Sanskrit cognate.
    I am sorry if I said something possibly wrong
    Thanks.
     

    Frank06

    Senior Member
    Nederlands / Dutch (Belgium)
    Hi,
    Thomas Bellot almost confirms this by putting Daughter in the list of English words taken from Sanskrit ( maybe he is wrong, I don't want to stick to it!).
    I hope not, please don't. Thomas Bellot's Sanskrit derivations of English words (from 1856) is a 172 page long curiosum in which even the most obviously PIE words are believed to come straight from Sanskrit.

    Actually, I don't mean it is derived from Sanskrit, I meant the oldest evidence I have found is its Sanskrit cognate. I am sorry if I said something possibly wrong.
    Thanks for making that clear. Most of the entries in the lexicon don't hold water. At best,the list can be considered as a collection of cognates. But even then, there are far betterand more reliable publications than Bellot's list.


    Back to the topic:

    What I found for 'to milk, to suck' is
    *dheug(')h-
    *dheugh-

    Which is not the same as
    * dhug(h)əter (daughter)

    I think we need slightly more convincing arguments to link 'daughter' to (Sanskrit) dough, to milk.


    W. Skeat says, after presenting many cognates, daughter has a Sanskrit root, which means milking.
    Thanks.

    Weird, my version of Skeat's A concise Etymological dictionary of the English language (1951, reprint of the 1911 edition) doesn't mention anything that can relate 'daughter' to something that means 'to milk'. Neither does my edition say that 'daughter' has a Sanskrit root.
    It does mention, however, "orig. sense doubtful".

    So, all this makes me very curious about what can be found in your edition. Are we talking about the same Walter W. Skeat?

    Groetjes,

    Frank
     

    Asgaard

    Member
    usa, english
    Hi,
    Hi,

    What I found for 'to milk, to suck' is
    *dheug(')h-
    *dheugh-

    Which is not the same as
    * dhug(h)əter (daughter)

    I think we need slightly more convincing arguments to link 'daughter' to (Sanskrit) dough, to milk.

    Groetjes,

    Frank


    Hi,

    The view that Skt, duhitar "daughter" means "milk-maid" (root -duh,dug) was first put forward by J. Greem, who even compared Lat. mulier: mulgere and femina: O.N.fem,fam "milk." Cf. Geschichte der Deutschen Sprache, p. 1001.

    According to etymonline, L. base *fe-, corresponds to PIE *dhe(i)- "to suck, suckle (*fe-mna-, lit. "she who suckles")

    Proto-IE: *dheug(')h- Meaning: to suck, to milk Old Indian: dogdhi, pl. duhate, ptc. dugdha- `to milk', dugha- `milking', dughā f. `milch-cow', dogdhar- m. `milker', dogha- m. `milker, milking'

    dug (n.)
    "animal nipple," or, contemptuously, "the human female breast," 1530, origin obscure, related to Swed. dagga, Dan. dægge "to suckle."

    Hungarian - tõgye, tôgy (udder)

    Proto-Celtic - degu (drink)

    Could jug be a cognate to dug?

    Swedish: juver [j'u:ver] juvret juvren (el. juverna) noun
    mjölkproducerande organ med spenar på däggdjurshona (as in cows, etc.)

    (can anyone translate däggdjurshona ?)



    Happy Holidays
    Asgaard
     

    shannenms

    Senior Member
    Persian
    I looked up Dough دوغ in my Persian dictionary. It seems it had meant milk in the past. Hence, I think they are to some extent connected.
    Thanks for your attention.
     

    Flaminius

    hedomodo
    日本語 / japāniski / יפנית
    According to etymonline, L. base *fe-, corresponds to PIE *dhe(i)- "to suck, suckle (*fe-mna-, lit. "she who suckles")

    Proto-IE: *dheug(')h- Meaning: to suck, to milk Old Indian: dogdhi, pl. duhate, ptc. dugdha- `to milk', dugha- `milking', dughā f. `milch-cow', dogdhar- m. `milker', dogha- m. `milker, milking'
    This goes to show that the Latin word and the Sanskrit word come from different PIE roots, unless you would like to account for how the ǵh was lost from Latin, which is exceptional from the way it usually is incorporated into Latin lexis.

    dug (n.)
    "animal nipple," or, contemptuously, "the human female breast," 1530, origin obscure, related to Swed. dagga, Dan. dægge "to suckle." Origin obscure means that no-one has succeeded in tracing the word back to PIE; not to be included in the evidence we consider.

    Hungarian - tõgye, tôgy (udder)
    Unless the word in question is a lone from an IE language, a Hungarian word would not serve as evidence to a PIE reconstructing theory.
     

    shannenms

    Senior Member
    Persian
    I order to get better understandig of the pronunciation of Persian Dough I should say it is pronounced as French DouR, with R pronounced the same as French R.
     

    Asgaard

    Member
    usa, english
    Hi,

    This goes to show that the Latin word and the Sanskrit word come from different PIE roots, unless you would like to account for how the ǵh was lost from Latin, which is exceptional from the way it usually is incorporated into Latin lexis.

    ... OK, so it seems that would be extremely difficult to prove that dhugh, daughter is cognate to dheug(')h, to suck, milk .

    Could these be cognate roots? Any connection at all?

    Proto-IE: *tewǝk- Meaning: seed, sprout, foetus
    Old Indian: tuc- f. (only dat. tuce) `offspring, children', toka- n. id., tokman-, tokma- m. `young shoot, young blade of corn'
    Minor fair use excerpts from dictionaries such as a definition/translation or two are permitted. Quotes and translations of texts up to 4 sentences are permitted. Links to content elsewhere are acceptable and appropriate, provided such links meet the requirements stated elsewhere in these rules. Always acknowledge the source. From the WR Rules
    Frank
    Moderator EHL
    Germanic: *diux-t-ar- n.
    Middle High German: diehter, tiehter st. n. 'enkel'- grandchild



    Happy Holidays
    Asgaard
     

    mkh

    Banned
    Iran, Farsi
    Hi,
    ... Persian Dough (a kind of drink which is produced by mixing water and yoghurt)....
    دوغ (dugh) in Per. is said to any thing that mixes to water, specially to the mixture of water and yogurt.
    So دوغ may be equivalent to Eng. dough means "mass of flour or meal combined with other ingredients".
    Etymonline.com: dough: from PIE *dheigh- "to mould, to form, to knead".
    In this way, Is there any relation between Eng. words of daughter and dough?
    ...Old Indian: tuc- f. (only dat. tuce) `offspring, children', toka- n. id., tokman-, tokma- m. `young shoot, young blade of corn'
    Avestan: taoxman- n. 'Keim, Same', pl. 'Verwandschaft'
    Other Iranian: OPers taumā f. 'Geschlecht', NPers tuxm 'Same, Geschlecht'...
    From Avesta.org taoxma [taoxman] means "seed" is currently used in Per. as تخم (tokhm).

    Thanks,
    Mahdi.
     

    Flaminius

    hedomodo
    日本語 / japāniski / יפנית
    Asgaard said:
    Proto-IE: *tewǝk- Meaning: seed, sprout, foetus
    (...)
    Germanic: *diux-t-ar- n. > Middle High German: diehter, tiehter st. n. 'enkel'- grandchild
    So, do you agree with Pokorny that the Middle High German word diehter is from PIE *tewǝk-? The same author analyses tohter, Middle High German for "daughter" as derived from Proto-Germanic: *doxtēr (< *PIE *dhuga-t-er-). If two similar-looking words can be traced back to different roots in an ancestor language, well, they are really different, not cognates.
     

    Asgaard

    Member
    usa, english
    Hi,
    So, do you agree with Pokorny that the Middle High German word diehter is from PIE *tewǝk-? The same author analyses tohter, Middle High German for "daughter" as derived from Proto-Germanic: *doxtēr (< *PIE *dhuga-t-er-). If two similar-looking words can be traced back to different roots in an ancestor language, well, they are really different, not cognates.

    I don't necessarily agree with Pokorny ... .
    An earlier spelling (1600 -1700 ad ) of daughter was dafter. Does dafter still fits the reconstructed "PIE" root? I am still looking for an even earlier spelling. Do you guys have an early spelling of the German tochter ?



    Happy Holidays
    Asgaard
     

    Frank06

    Senior Member
    Nederlands / Dutch (Belgium)
    Hi,
    An earlier spelling (1600 -1700 ad ) of daughter was dafter. Does dafter still fits the reconstructed "PIE" root?
    Interesting observation, but the spelling of one word has little impact on the reconstruction of PIE roots. 'Dafter' is a spelling variant based upon an alternative (? or regional?) pronunication. It's not because some people spell 'lafter' in stead of 'laughter' that we have a reason to doubt the reconstructed Germanic root for that word.
    But there is something 'irregular' about the modern day 'standard' pronunication of English daughter; 'dafter' (at least the pronuciation with /f/) fits the series 'enuf' / enough, 'cuff' / cough, etc.

    But back to your question: I don't think that I exaggerate, but a relatively late spelling variant of one English word doesn't have a lot of impact on the reconstruction of Proto-Germanic or PIE, since
    1. all the other Germanic languages have definitely a voiceless velar fricative (apart from Old Norse, but see below);
    2. reconstructions are based upon regular sound patterns, and for those patterns a lot of words are needed, not just one word in various languages.

    Otherwise said, the reconstructed velar fricative in PGmic dohter- is as solid as a rock. Less solid, though, is the status of the velar sound in the PIE root, since most authors give *dug(h)-. But it's a velar any which way.

    I think a discussion on the alternation -gh- / -f- would lead us too far off topic, but it sure would be a nice new thread (since the alternation also happens in Dutch and German: lucht / Luft).

    I am still looking for an even earlier spelling. Do you guys have an early spelling of the German tochter ?

    AHG tohter, OS dohtar, ON dóttir (assimilation), OE do:htar, do:hter, Go daúhtar.

    Groetjes,

    Frank
     

    Asgaard

    Member
    usa, english
    Hi


    Middle English - 1395
    Leviticus Chapter 19, Verse 29 -Wyclif

    Ne putt thow thi douyter to bordel, and the loond be defoulid, and it be fulfillid with trespas vnto deth.

    So far: y - > f -> gh and ou ->a ->ou ->au
    douyter -> dafter -> doughter ->daughter

    The Greek tygatera is very interesting

    250 BC -
    Septuagint
    Ou bebhlwseiV thn qugatera sou ekporneusai authn kai ouk ekporneusei h gh kai h gh plhsqhsetai anomiaV

    Is it possible ? tyga -> quga ... If so I believe we have a proto root for it.





    Happy Holidays
    Asgaard
     

    Frank06

    Senior Member
    Nederlands / Dutch (Belgium)
    Hi,
    Middle English - 1395[...]
    So far: y - > f -> gh and ou ->a ->ou ->au
    douyter -> dafter -> doughter ->daughter

    The problems with the series you give above are quite big.
    You ignore:
    - standard chronology (like: English forms from the 9th/10th century are older than English forms from the 14th century and later);
    - standard logic: if -h- [x] is older than -f- [f] (in our particular example of dohter-dafter), then [x] > [f] and not [f] > [x]. It shouldn't come as a real big surprise, but this is described in any single manual on English historical phonlogy. It is also well described how [x] > [f] or [x] > zero (often with compensatory stretching of the vowel). Some on line examples: simple descriptions can be found here, here (+/- line 50), here (§5);
    - the history of English orthography;
    - the simple fact that OE data (which, by definition preceed the data you give) have dohter, where the grapheme <h> represents [x] (OE even has doughter, doghter);
    - the other Germanic languages (see previous post), which also are taken into account when coming up with an etymology of the (Germanic and even PIE) word / root.


    Groetjes,

    Ghrank
     

    Asgaard

    Member
    usa, english
    Hi,


    Hi,


    The problems with the series you give above are quite big.
    You ignore:
    - standard chronology (like: English forms from the 9th/10th century are older than English forms from the 14th century and later);
    - standard logic: if -h- [x] is older than -f- [f] (in our particular example of dohter-dafter), then [x] > [f] and not [f] > [x]. It shouldn't come as a real big surprise, but this is described in any single manual on English historical phonlogy. It is also well described how [x] > [f] or [x] > zero (often with compensatory stretching of the vowel). Some on line examples: simple descriptions can be found here, here (+/- line 50), here (§5);
    - the history of English orthography;
    - the simple fact that OE data (which, by definition preceed the data you give) have dohter, where the grapheme <h> represents [x] (OE even has doughter, doghter);
    - the other Germanic languages (see previous post), which also are taken into account when coming up with an etymology of the (Germanic and even PIE) word / root.


    Groetjes,

    Ghrank

    No, Ghrank .... I didn't ignore... I just didn't know. The words are ordered chronologically based on data that I've found ... so far. ( I have much to learn and dig)
    - Any idea where can I find any original documents (scanned?) 'dated' prior to 1000 AD? Are there such documents?
    - Is toy (n.) from the same family?
    - Words like Virgin (n.) , Gk. Talis, (Aram. Talitha Cumi) are based on young shoots, twigs, branches. Is Daughter - Offshoot, Offspring, Twig, A bow? - if so... not based on Milk but Tree?
    - How old is Doxy? ( Rom. baba Dokia? ) - any relation w/ Gk. δάσος (Dacia?)


    Happy New Year
     

    Frank06

    Senior Member
    Nederlands / Dutch (Belgium)
    Hi,
    As I mentioned in my private letter, my Walter W. Skeat Dictionary is the edition of 1993.
    Edition? That would highly surprise me. Most online resources (among which online booksellers and Google.books) indicate that quite a few editions have been reprinted.
    Do you mean reprint? A reprint of the 1901 or 1911 edition(?). Isn't there a copyright note or a preface / introduction which is dated?

    Anyway, to bring this thread back on-topic, I'd appreciate it very much if you could quote that part of the dictionary in which Skeat claims that 'daughter' comes from Sanskrit 'dough-' and that it is connected to 'milk'.
    But please keep in mind the 4 lines rule :).


    - Any idea where can I find any original documents (scanned?) 'dated' prior to 1000 AD? Are there such documents?
    I tried to find some sites, but alas. If you really need facsimiles, then I advice you to start saving money :). See here for an explantion on the various universities which deal with publishing facsimiles of manuscripts.
    If you'd be satified with online material, then any search engine can help you. Just check out in which way the (online) texts are edited.

    - Is toy (n.) from the same family?
    Apart from being off topic, there doesn't seem to be a connection with the roots we are discussing.

    - Words like Virgin (n.) , Gk. Talis, (Aram. Talitha Cumi) are based on young shoots, twigs, branches. Is Daughter - Offshoot, Offspring, Twig, A bow? - if so... not based on Milk but Tree?
    - How old is Doxy? ( Rom. baba Dokia? ) - any relation w/ Gk. δάσος (Dacia?)
    I truly hope that this was your last series of words you'll post here, I mean words which happen to have a few letters in common with the words we're discussing.


    Groetjes,

    Frank
     

    shannenms

    Senior Member
    Persian
    Hi,

    Edition? That would highly surprise me. Most online resources (among which online booksellers and Google.books) indicate that quite a few editions have been reprinted.
    Do you mean reprint? A reprint of the 1901 or 1911 edition(?). Isn't there a copyright note or a preface / introduction which is dated?

    Anyway, to bring this thread back on-topic, I'd appreciate it very much if you could quote that part of the dictionary in which Skeat claims that 'daughter' comes from Sanskrit 'dough-' and that it is connected to 'milk'.
    But please keep in mind the 4 lines rule :).

    1-This is Concise dictionary of English Etymology by Walter W. SKeat.
    2-The only note says this edition is published in 1993... , which I think is a reprint of the some former edition.
    3-I completely quote from Daughter entry:
    Daughter: (E) M.E doghter, dohter. A.S. dohtor.+ Du. dochter, Dan. datter, dotter. Swed. dotter. Icel. dottir, Goth. dauhtar, G. tochter, Russ. doche. Gk. thugater, Skt. duhitri. The Skt. duhitri seems to have meant "milker" of the cows; from duh (=dhugh), to milk.

    I hope it may help.
     

    Frank06

    Senior Member
    Nederlands / Dutch (Belgium)
    Hi,

    Thank you very much for the quote and for bringing this thread back on topic.
    3-I completely quote from Daughter entry:
    Daughter: (E) M.E doghter, dohter. A.S. dohtor.+ Du. dochter, Dan. datter, dotter. Swed. dotter. Icel. dottir, Goth. dauhtar, G. tochter, Russ. doche. Gk. thugater, Skt. duhitri. The Skt. duhitri seems to have meant "milker" of the cows; from duh (=dhugh), to milk.

    W. Skeat says, after presenting many cognates, daughter has a Sanskrit root which means milking.
    Two notes here:
    - Skeat does not say at all that daughter has a Sanskrit root. The Sanskrit word is just one of the many cognates he presents.
    - Skeat uses "seems", so that is an indication that he isn't that sure.

    Groetjes,

    Frank
     

    Flaminius

    hedomodo
    日本語 / japāniski / יפנית
    In this page, Gérard Huet analyzes duhitṛ as √duh (to milk; one of its tense stems being dugdha) + tṛ (not traceable in his dictionary but seems like a suffix of agency according to other sources). It sounds convincing but the problem of this analysis is that it has no support outside Sanskrit.

    Considering how wide-spread cognates of daughter are across IE languages, I think the silence of other languages should be considered as great counterexamples. Sherlock Holmes reportedly distinguished himself as a consulting detective by the wont to ask —rather than why something has happened— why another thing did not happen while something has happened. As an amateur language snoop, I find it worth asking why such a hypothesis of this much plausibility had not been supported by linguists after W. Skeat.

    If one believes that Sanskrit is the oldest of IE languages and therefore should be given ascendancy in the process of reconstructing a PIE form, then no hapax legomenon in Sanskrit is likely to bother one. I tend not to follow that logic, however, given how much effort has been put the discipline in order to establish the relatedness of IE languages; a salient example being Tocharian, which, due to isolation and influence from non-IE languages, retained very few recognisable traces of hithertofore-known IE.
     

    Asgaard

    Member
    usa, english
    Hi,

    Could ducky be cognate with daughter?

    ducky - "excellent," slang from 1897; probably not related to much earlier slang noun meaning "a woman's breast" ["...whose pritty duckys I trust shortly to kysse," Henry VIII, letter to Anne Boleyn, c.1536].

    see also dug -'animal nipple'

    Danish dukke, a baby or puppet (Wolff), Ger. docke, a doll or puppet, Shetland duckie, a doll or little girl ; with which we may compare Scotch tokie, a fondling term for a child (Ger. tocke), Swed. tokig, silly, Icel. toki, a simpleton. This is more likely than that it should be connected with North.

    Happy New Year
    Asgaard
     

    Flaminius

    hedomodo
    日本語 / japāniski / יפנית
    Hi,

    Could ducky be cognate with daughter?
    Again, there is no evidence that the English daughter or the Proto-Germanic word meaning the same is the product of compounding more than one etymons.

    ducky - "excellent," slang from 1897; probably not related to much earlier slang noun meaning "a woman's breast" ["...whose pritty duckys I trust shortly to kysse," Henry VIII, letter to Anne Boleyn, c.1536].

    see also dug -'animal nipple'

    Danish dukke, a baby or puppet (Wolff), Ger. docke, a doll or puppet, Shetland duckie, a doll or little girl ; with which we may compare Scotch tokie, a fondling term for a child (Ger. tocke), Swed. tokig, silly, Icel. toki, a simpleton. This is more likely than that it should be connected with North.
    All of your quotes may or may not mean that ducky (in sense as used by Henry VIII), dug, dukke, docke and other words are related but then there is nothing to prove a connection with daughter.
     

    Alijsh

    Senior Member
    Persian - Iran
    shannenms: I have also heard duxtar means dušandeye šir (milker) because it has been their task to milk. Regarding Persian, duxtar (older pronunciation of doxtar) should be cognate with duxtan. Firstly, -ar of duxtar is a morpheme. As you know, we have also duxt (doxt). Secondly, duxtan as well as "to sew", also means dušidan (to milk). In fact, duxtan has two present stems: duz and duš. dušidan has been made from duš of duxtan. As you probably know, -idan is equivalent to French -er, etc. that is used in coining new verbs.

    EDIT - So, that story seems plausible for Iranian languages. By the way, Sanskrit has a sister called Avestan. I don't consider duxtar as a borrowing from Sanskrit. It's definitely an Iranian word.
     

    shannenms

    Senior Member
    Persian
    shannenms: I have also heard duxtar means dušandeye šir (milker) because it has been their task to milk. Regarding Persian, duxtar (older pronunciation of doxtar) should be cognate with duxtan. Firstly, -ar of duxtar is a morpheme. As you know, we have also duxt (doxt). Secondly, duxtan as well as &quot;to sew&quot;, also means dušidan (to milk). In fact, duxtan has two present stems: duz and duš. dušidan has been made from duš of duxtan. As you probably know, -idan is equivalent to French -er,f5f etc. that is used in coining new verbs.

    EDIT - So, that story seems plausible for Iranian languages. By the way, Sanskrit has a sister called Avestan. I don't consider duxtar as a borrowing from Sanskrit. It's definitely an Iranian word.


    I agree, but I don't know neither of these analyses is not included in Nyberg's book!
     

    shannenms

    Senior Member
    Persian
    Daughter in Avestan is pronounced دوغدر (doughdar) which the first part is the same as Dough at least in pronounciation.
     
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