de Bruyne (pronunciation)

HappyDave

New Member
USA, English
Hi,

I was wondering if there is a difference between the way a Flemish person and a Dutch person would pronounce the name de Bruyne (as in Kevin de Bruyne - the Belgian footballer) ?

Any help would be great, dank u wel!
 
  • bibibiben

    Senior Member
    Dutch - Netherlands
    Most Dutch speakers tend to pronounce ui as a true diphthong: [œy], [ʌ̈y], [ʌy] or [ɐy]. Word-finally: [œyj], [œj], [ʌ̈yj], [ʌ̈j], [ʌyj], [ʌj], [ɐyj] or [ɐj]. Monophthongization is generally frowned upon, but is particularly common in The Hague area ('Haags'): [œː]. There seems to be a tendency among Flemish speakers to favor monophthongization as well: [œː].
     
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    Peterdg

    Senior Member
    Dutch - Belgium
    There seems to be a tendency among Flemish speakers to favor monophthongization as well: [œː].
    As far as I know, they were never diphthongs in Flemish. In Belgium, De Bruyne is pronounced as [ʌ]. Only in East Flanders, it would be pronounced as [œː].
     

    bibibiben

    Senior Member
    Dutch - Netherlands
    As far as I know, they were never diphthongs in Flemish. In Belgium, De Bruyne is pronounced as [ʌ].
    Pronouncing ui (or uy) as [ʌ] means that there's no lip rounding at all, making Dutch buis sound like English bus. I wonder if any other Flemish speaker will confirm that that's the way ui is pronounced in Belgium. I doubt it.

    Collins & Mees state in their Phonetics of English and Dutch (1996) that the glide in ui is "an essential part of the articulation for the standard varieties (i.e. (NL) ABN and (B) AN)", while at the same time certain Dutch dialects (mainly 'Haags') and a great many Flemish dialects pronounce ui as a steady-state vowel, which means that these dialects lengthen the first element in [œy], producing [œː] as a result.
     
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    Peterdg

    Senior Member
    Dutch - Belgium
    @bibibiben: I'm not very skilled in IPA. I went to a website on which you can hear how the different symbols sound and this is the nearest I could find. Of course, that depends on the reliability of the web site and my ear.
     
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    marrish

    Senior Member
    اُردو Urdu
    Hi,
    I was wondering if there is a difference between the way a Flemish person and a Dutch person would pronounce the name de Bruyne (as in Kevin de Bruyne - the Belgian footballer) ?
    As far as I know, they were never diphthongs in Flemish. In Belgium, De Bruyne is pronounced as [ʌ]. Only in East Flanders, it would be pronounced as [œː].
    Watch out for the correct spelling.
     

    bibibiben

    Senior Member
    Dutch - Netherlands
    What a meticulously presented overview of so many possible pronunciations!
    Yes, a great many possible pronunciations, but I must admit that some pronunciations are less common or acceptable:

    Time-honored, canonical pronunciation: [œy].
    Common in large parts of the Netherlands, less so in Flanders: [ʌ̈y], [ʌy].
    Not generally accepted: [ɐy].

    Word-final ui:
    Broad transcription: [œy].
    Narrower transcription: [œyj].
    Common in large parts of the Netherlands: [ʌ̈yj], [ʌyj].
    To be avoided: [œj] (this is how many French speakers pronounce Dutch ui).
    Not generally accepted: [ɐyj].
    Least accepted: [ɐj].
     

    YellowOnline

    Senior Member
    Dutch - Belgium
    Please note the name is "De Bruyne", not "de Bruyne". Big difference, as in Belgium a small letter is reserved for nobility.

    Considering pronunciation: like bibibiben says, the standard Dutch is [œy], the standard Flemish [œ:].

    The problem is that [œ] doesn't exist in English, where most pronounce it as [ɔɪ]. The way I try to explain it to Germans - I live in Germany, where he used to play for Wolfsburg - is that it's the same as in the French 'portefeuille'. Assuming you know basic French, of course.
     

    Peterdg

    Senior Member
    Dutch - Belgium
    If you want to hear how it sounds in Flanders: go to this site. Enter Dutch as language, choose Elen (Belgian) as voice, and enter de bruyne in the text field. That's how I would pronounce it.
     

    ThomasK

    Senior Member
    Belgium, Dutch
    I think monopthongs are common in Dutch dialects: in Antwerp it sounds like an /a/ as in standard Dutch "man", but longer, and in West Flanders you can hear something like /hus/ as [ʌ], but not in all dialects, I think. Yet, it is not considered standard Dutch (of course), but perfect pronunciation of vowels is not what most Flemish people aim at... ;-)
     

    Peterdg

    Senior Member
    Dutch - Belgium
    There's some funny pronunciation out there between the (Dutch) as voices.
    Yes, the Laura (Netherlands) character is, at least strange, I don't know where they got that from. She pronounces everything strange, not only De Bruyne.
     

    Red Arrow

    Senior Member
    Dutch - Belgium
    The following pronunciations are common in Flanders.
    puin = [pœyn] or [pœ:n]
    bui = [bœy] or [bœ:]
    buien = [bœ:jə]

    I don't hear [bœyje] on the news or in Limburg. The [y] part clearly merges with [j] here.
    As far as I know, they were never diphthongs in Flemish.
    What about Limburg?
     

    Red Arrow

    Senior Member
    Dutch - Belgium
    Honestly, I wouldn't know.
    Really? I suppose Limburgian is as exotic to you as East-Flemish is to me :D

    People in Limburg pronounce ui as [œy], ij as [ɛi] and ei as [ɛ:i]. In Limburgian tussentaal, the difference between ei and ij is often lost.

    (EDIT: In some dialects, ui is still pronounced [y:], just like in West-Flanders.)
     
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    Red Arrow

    Senior Member
    Dutch - Belgium
    Niet alleen voor een sjwa maar ook aan het eind van woord spreek ik een /j/ uit, geen /y/ of /w/. Het eerste deel van de tweeklank is altijd kort bij mij.
    Grappig. In het Leuvense dialect klinkt 'oor' als [œi] bv. door, voor, voorbeeld etc.

    En bij 80-plussers klinkt 'eer' als [ɛi] bv. weeral /wɛjɑl/
     
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