deeply entrenched... for the best part of 40 years

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Maria Leopoldina

Senior Member
Brazil, portuguese
Olá a todos!

Allende was deeply entrenched in Chilean politics for the best part of 40 years.

Minha tentativa: Allende militou ativamente na política chilena durante quase 40 anos.

Está correto? Agradeço a colaboração.
 
  • almufadado

    Senior Member
    Português de Portugal
    Olá a todos!

    Allende was deeply entrenched in Chilean politics for the best part of 40 years.

    Minha tentativa: Allende militou ativamente na política chilena durante quase 40 anos.

    Está correto? Agradeço a colaboração.
    Entrincheirado -> numa trincheira -> estabelecer-se dentro do espaço com uma posição forte mas defensiva. A expressão é figurativa adoptada dos militares para a politica, aplica-se para descrever uma situação em que se está na linha da frente com uma posição defensiva definida, precária ou não.

    Salvador Allende esteve bem entrincheirado na politica Chilena durante a maior parte dos 40 anos.

    This adds that he had, both internal (nazi inspired far-right) and external (Kissinger/CIA), enemies always attacking him and the left wing, so he had "to dug in" (the ground) , so to speak, to be in a defensive position for most of the 40 years he was in politics, as the founder of the Socialist Party. In the end they bombed "the trench".

    ->"militou na politica chilena " -> ser activista, ser militante politico ... does not cut it. For the "Chilean experience" this is to "soft" an expression as this was sometimes a tragic one;

    ->"numa posição defensiva" ... could be ;

    ->"entranhado, mas sempre na defensiva, na politica Chilena " ... both meanings.
     

    GOODVIEW

    Senior Member
    Portugues brasileiro
    Acho que a tradução literal caberia muito bem:

    Allende entricheirou-se obstinadamente na pol...

    Ele se colocou como que dentro de uma trincheira de onde ninguém conseguia tirá-lo.
     

    almufadado

    Senior Member
    Português de Portugal
    Acho que a tradução literal caberia muito bem:

    Allende entricheirou-se obstinadamente na pol...

    Ele se colocou como que dentro de uma trincheira de onde ninguém conseguia tirá-lo.
    "deeply" por "obstinadamente" ... não sei se é assim tão literal. Mas compreendo o seu ponto de vista ... que tal "profundamente" .

    ou pegando no "deeply" e mudando a figura "profundamente enraizado" .
     

    GOODVIEW

    Senior Member
    Portugues brasileiro
    "deeply" por "obstinadamente" ... não sei se é assim tão literal. Mas compreendo o seu ponto de vista ... que tal "profundamente" .

    ou pegando no "deeply" e mudando a figura "profundamente enraizado" .
    Entricheirar-se profundamente me parece um pouco inadequado pois passa uma imagem de quem está mais escondido no fundo da trincheira do que protegido por esta (estou me referindo apenas à combinação de entricheirar-se com profundamente).

    A imagem que vejo é de alguém que se aquartelou, se aboletou, fincou o pé na política de modo obstinado, indemovível em seu propósito, do tipo daqui num saio daqui ninguém me tira. E dentro dessa trincheira que criou para si, permaneceu com obstinação, persistência, tenacidade, talvez teimosia até, durante cerca de 40 anos.

    Mas concordo que profundamente enraizado também caberia muito bem. :)
     

    GOODVIEW

    Senior Member
    Portugues brasileiro
    Voltando ainda ao assunto (que cara chato!), deeply nesse contexto significa, a meu ver, fortemente e não profundamente. Dentro dessa perspectiva, cabe mais uma alternativa que julgo ser bastante próxima do original:

    Allende permaneceu fortemente entrincheirado na política chilena...
     

    almufadado

    Senior Member
    Português de Portugal
    Voltando ainda ao assunto (que cara chato!), deeply nesse contexto significa, a meu ver, fortemente e não profundamente. Dentro dessa perspectiva, cabe mais uma alternativa que julgo ser bastante próxima do original:

    Allende permaneceu fortemente entrincheirado na política chilena...
    Excelente !
     

    Tazzler

    Senior Member
    American English
    Eu gostaria somente de acrescentar uma coisa: the verb doesn't necessarily imply a defensive position or something of that sort. It just means that he was rooted in the politics, an integral part of the country's politics, a leading figure.
     

    almufadado

    Senior Member
    Português de Portugal
    Eu gostaria somente de acrescentar uma coisa: the verb doesn't necessarily imply a defensive position or something of that sort. It just means that he was rooted in the politics, an integral part of the country's politics, a leading figure.
    If so, then the author would choose a more neutral phrasing like : "To be in the political establishment "

    The has a figurative sense, as it is a figure of speech, so it has an associated imagery.

    Moreover, knowing his history, he was a left wing political activist that fought for the rights of his the people to be free from political and economical tyranny (ditactors, the USA controlled the economy and so on), even worse when was the elected by his people and overthrown with the help (and motivation) of the CIA. So when fighting sometimes you have to dug in ...

    PS : I do not what to start a political debate ... If you find "entrenched" too strong of a word, go see the author !
     
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    Tazzler

    Senior Member
    American English
    If so, then the author would choose a more neutral phrasing like : "To be in the political establishment "

    The has a figurative sense, as it is a figure of speech, so it has an associated imagery.

    Moreover, knowing his history, he was a left wing political activist that fought for the rights of his the people to be free from political and economical tyranny (ditactors, the USA controlled the economy and so on), even worse when was the elected by his people and overthrown with the help (and motivation) of the CIA. So when fighting sometimes you have to dug in ...

    PS : I do not what to start a political debate ... If you find "entrenched" too strong of a word, go see the author !
    Yes, the word borrows from military terminology, but all I'm saying is that you want to translate the original text faithfully. At first sight I got the idea that Allende was an integral part of Chilean politics and that's it. The figurative sense is simply one of establishing oneself firmly into something else. Maybe there is a sort of word play going on by alluding to defensive military trenches, but that is purely contextual. I affirm that the word's figurative meaning is neutral.

    Espero ter ajudado.
     

    almufadado

    Senior Member
    Português de Portugal
    Yes, the word borrows from military terminology, but all I'm saying is that you want to translate the original text faithfully. At first sight I got the idea that Allende was an integral part of Chilean politics and that's it. The figurative sense is simply one of establishing oneself firmly into something else. Maybe there is a sort of word play going on by alluding to defensive military trenches, but that is purely contextual. I affirm that the word's figurative meaning is neutral.

    Espero ter ajudado.
    neutral = Belonging to neither kind; not one thing or the other ; One who takes no side in a controversy.

    Helpful that you are :) thanks ! I could understand that in certain contexts the word's figurative meaning can be neutral, if the word wasn't mostly used in politics. And in politics all words have meaning, and are meant (most of the times :)). Talking politics there is no such thing as neutral, except when the author can see both sides and tell us how He/she sees it, both ways. Yes, there is "political correct", but there is also manipulation, second meaning and intentions, and so on (the list goes on forever !).

    IE:
    BBC News - Hillary Clinton scorns 'entrenched' Cuba
    10 Apr 2010 ... US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton accuses Cuba's leaders of not wanting to normalise ties with the United States.
    Here Mrs Clinton, "passes the ball" to Cuba and in the title, as a clear figure of speech (between commas), the word "entrenches" means that Cuba as to rebate (be in a defensive position) and the newscast assumes it will be in a defensive stance. But Castro usually got out of his "trench" and went on the offensive .

    Racism Deeply Entrenched in Policy
    With the election of the United States' first black, or partially black, president, the issue of race has seemingly been pushed aside.
    Here it states that the factor (racism) used in sociological context, goes everything but neutral. The enforces the sense that racism is here and here to stay ... engraved, embedded, "stick in like a bee sting" (strong figure) ... the word is as strong as it's strong meaning ...

    So when we right we must choose our wording well, for there is such thing a neutral word in certain contexts. All words are what they are, use for whatever purposes there are, and most of all are what the mean.

    And I don't even wont go the opposite sense of "neutral", like in "bias" ...

    So the author here used "deeply entrenched" and we reach the conclusion that it translates as " fortemente entrincheirado" ... same wording, same figurative meaning ... "estabelecido", "consolidado" ... "enterrado até aos cabelos"...."entrincheirado" ...

    And our mission here is neither to rewrite history (the universal one, I mean ... not the fully biased deeply entrenched American history (my strong opinion , sorry !) ), nor the author choosing of words (if we can help it!).

    Again, this is not a political debate, this an exercise with purpose to find what is the use of the words and when they have been used ... in this case I added the "why" section ... to which you don't seem to agree.

    PS : I am well informed about this Chilean period, as I went thought the many biases versions of it !
     
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