Dein (Name)

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C.C.Moundshroud

New Member
English - U.S.
if someone were to sign a letter / email

Viele Gruesse,

Dein [Name]

is there anything to be interpreted by the use of Dein?
I understand that this will likely be an opinion-based response, but any thoughts are appreciated.
The sender is a native German speaker.

Thank you.
 
  • C.C.Moundshroud

    New Member
    English - U.S.
    Thank you for the responses and apologies for the year-long delay.
    It is not a typical sign off from a man to a woman, unless they are friends, correct?
     

    Hutschi

    Senior Member
    Hi,

    I use it also for almost all relatives, as my sister, my brother, my uncle, my aunt, my niece, my nephew etc. I used it additionally for my grandma and grandpa (they unfortunately died, so this is obsolete now.).
    I am wondering why it should be restricted to "girlfriend and parents and might use it with women I feel close to."

    I remember, as child I also used it when addressing close friends.

    May be it is more restricted now considering Kajjo's restrictions. Is it a North-South-question as with "Bernd" vs. "der Bernd"?

    I would not misunderstood in any way as romantic interest, when I receive a letter from my nephew, or my aunt, and if they used "Dein" or "Deine".

    I would be more confused if they write it lowercase.

    Mostly I write "Ihr" (formal style) when addressing people and we did not agree to "Du".

    If we have a close "du"-relation I write "dein Bernd"
    If it is just a forum, I avoid "dein" but use "von".

    ---

    Another question is symmetry. If somebody writes "Dein" (and we are in a "Du"-status) I'd use it, too.

    Viele Grüße von Bernd
     

    Kajjo

    Senior Member
    I use it also for almost all relatives, as my sister, my brother, my uncle, my aunt, my niece, my nephew
    Agreed. If you have more close relatives, you might extend the usage. I don't have such relatives.

    I would not misunderstood in any way as romantic interest, when I receive a letter from my nephew, or my aunt, and if they used "Dein" or "Deine".
    Nor would I, if the relationships were close.

    If somebody writes "Dein" (and we are in a "Du"-status) I'd use it, too.
    I certainly would not do so automatically, since with non-relatives this indicates romantic interest. I would consider my intentions before replying with such an intimate phrase.
     

    Hutschi

    Senior Member
    I see. I would propose a compromize:
    I certainly would not do so automatically, (Kajjo)
    I think, we can agree to do so considering context. (Context might be very different cases. For example: if the other assumes to start a romantic relation - I may indicate that I do not want this by omitting "Dein ...".)

    Otherwise if it is a true friendship, "Dein ..." is possible outside romantic relations.
     

    berndf

    Moderator
    German (Germany)
    I think the whole expression is obsolescing. Someone who would use "Ihr <Name>" in formal letters wouldn't find it strange to use "Dein <Name>" in informal ones.
     

    sma099

    Senior Member
    German
    I agree with Kajjo (mostly). "Dein (Name)" is fine among relatives. But I think there is a difference between female-female friendships and male-female or male-male friendships. I wouldn't find it weird for two girlfriends to end a letter or e-mail that way and I've seen my girlfriend or mom say that to a girlfriend, even on WhatsApp. For male-male friendships, to me it just adds a lot of emotion (Pathos), which is almost always uncalled for and weird. I did say "Dein Freund (Name)" to my best friend (both males) last year though when I thanked him for the great last few years we've had. So maybe for birthday wishes and stuff.
     

    Hutschi

    Senior Member
    if someone were to sign a letter / email

    Viele Gruesse,

    Dein [Name]

    is there anything to be interpreted by the use of Dein?
    I understand that this will likely be an opinion-based response, but any thoughts are appreciated.
    The sender is a native German speaker.

    Thank you.
    Hi,
    there is another question we did not discuss here.

    This is "viele Grüße".

    An alternate form is "Liebe Grüße".

    This is rather neutral in usage if you do not connect it with "Dein vorname".
    With "dein Vorname" together it makes ist passionate.
    You can use it in a friendship to express special mode of closeness and affection (Trost spenden, Mitgefühl zeigen)
    but often it shows relation between friend and girl friend.

    "Liebe Grüße" alone does not indicate any erotic relation, it is just a friendly and informal.

    Liebe Grüße
    Dein Bernd Hutschenreuther

    Liebe Grüße
    von Herrn Hutschenreuther

    This does not indicate erotic friendship at all.

    Today I received a message from a person I do not know. (He or she wanted to attend a poetry forum).

    The closing formula was:

    "Liebe Grüße
    Vorname"

    In such cases you cannot use "Dein/Deine" but "liebe Grüße" is possible.

    Here "Dein" makes a difference.

    "Viele Grüße
    Dein Vorname" is much more neutral than
    "Liebe Grüße
    Dein Vorname"

    "Liebe Grüße

    Dein Vorname + Name" does usually not express a love relation or erotic interest.


    Forms as "Herzliche" or "Freundliche" Grüße also block passionate meanings of "Dein".
     
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    Kajjo

    Senior Member
    "Liebe Grüße". [...] with "dein Vorname" together it makes ist passionate.
    I agree, this combination indicates clearly romantic or erotic interest or very close family.

    "Viele Grüße
    Dein Vorname" is much more neutral than
    "Liebe Grüße
    Dein Vorname"
    Right.

    "Liebe Grüße
    Dein Vorname" does usually not express a love relation or erotic interest.
    Right -- however, while using "Liebe Grüße" might be somewhat inflationary in the recent years, I personally still restrict it to pretty close friends. I don't like to degrade this nice phrase by using it superficially for all kinds of acquaintances. Other people, however, might do so sometimes.
     
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    C.C.Moundshroud

    New Member
    English - U.S.
    Throwing more specifics in to the mix. The relationship was (formerly) professor (male) and student (female) and the two became... friends...
    Sign off is:

    Viele Grüße,
    Dein Klaus
     

    elroy

    Imperfect Mod
    US English, Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    not at all different from the US I may add
    Yes, unfortunately, this is a worldwide epidemic.
    It doesn't matter if you like it or not
    Last I checked, I was free to share my personal opinion, just as you are free to share yours. Whether my opinion "matters" or not is not for you to decide.
    that's the cultural context
    In your original post, you didn't objectively or neutrally talk about general cultural attitudes. You said "to me it just adds a lot of emotion (Pathos), which is almost always uncalled for and weird". Of course, like all of us, you are at least to a certain extent a product of the culture in which you were raised.
     
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    Hutschi

    Senior Member
    Let us go to this Forum, as example:

    We usually use "du" in the German Forum. There are some exceptions, but this does not matter here.

    Because of plural, I could use "Euer" - but I do not (usually).
    Even in case of "du" it is a rather formal relationship.

    I think "Du/Dein" includes (indeed) emotions.
    I would use it when addressing relatives and near friends.

    In the setting Professor - Student - in German there are two kinds of friends:

    1. Freund/Freundin (in the sense friendship) - if it is a deep friendship (best friend or one of the best friends) "Dein/Deine" is possible. But I do not know how common it is. I don't use it anymore, I write "Viele Grüße von Bernd". In some very emotional situations I might use it - for example in case of mourning (Trauer).
    When I was a child, I used it frequently.

    2. Freund/Freundin (in a relationship of love) - I think "Dein/Deine" is quite common. At least it was common in my environment and in my generation.
    I write "Viele Grüße, Dein Bernd". or "Viele Grüße von Deinem Bernd"


    It may change in time. The whole system changed more than once during the last centuries.

    ---
    Freund (love relation) is very private, and so different forms may be possible, it is seldom that you read letters from others in this case.

    ---
    PS: I do not know anything about new communications (usage of emoticons/abbreviations etc. in electronic media.)

    By the way: I use "Viele Grüße vom Bernd" when I want to express emotions in sense of warmth and to make it more informal.

    ---

    To use the proper phrase is rather important. In case of a love relation it becomes informal and private. Switching the mode is a highly emotional event. Going back to formal mode may be indicatet as end of friendship or as a big crisis.
     

    berndf

    Moderator
    German (Germany)
    Whether my opinion "matters" or not is not for you to decide.
    Well, he voiced an opinion on whether it matters or not and I am inclined to agree with with him. The cultural barrier against men expressing certain types of emotions in communication among themselves is still holding; regardless of whether one likes it or not.
     

    elroy

    Imperfect Mod
    US English, Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    That's like saying "Racism/sexism/injustice/violence exists whether one likes it or not, so there's no point saying that you are against it."

    Just as it is completely pertinent for sma099 to say that he feels this usage is "almost always uncalled for and weird," it is perfectly pertinent for me to express that I find this tragic.
    is still holding
    Yes, sadly. Change begins to happen when people start to question the status quo. One of the ways this begins to happen is when people express their dismay with the status quo, as I've done here.
     

    sma099

    Senior Member
    German
    Last I checked, I was free to share my personal opinion, just as you are free to share yours. Whether my opinion "matters" or not is not for you to decide.
    Sure. It's not me though who's decided this, but German culture. The value of your opinion (like/dislike) doesn't matter one bit for the values German culture has agreed on, so you can share all you want, but it's like sharing how upset one is that the accusative exists, there is no point to it, especially not on a language forum. And since we're all sharing our opinions and feelings now: your red herring in regards to racism and violence is beyond ridiculous. We're talking about how adult men would address each other in a letter, please...

    In your original post, you didn't objectively or neutrally talk about general cultural attitudes. You said "to me it just adds a lot of emotion (Pathos), which is almost always uncalled for and weird". Of course, like all of us, you are at least to a certain extent a product of the culture in which you were raised.
    Yeah I did not, that's true, and it's because when I make a more general, "objective" statement, inevitable someone comes along with some obscure fringe case that's different, but really changes nothing.
     

    elroy

    Imperfect Mod
    US English, Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    it's like sharing how upset one is that the accusative exists
    That is not the same thing at all. The accusative doesn't exist because males are heavily discouraged from authentically expressing their emotions.
    your red herring in regards to racism and violence
    It's not a red herring at all. In my view, prohibitions against male emotional authenticity are like racism and violence in that they are damaging, they are the result of social factors, and -- thankfully -- they are not givens and they are not unchangeable. Just because these things currently exist doesn't mean I can't or shouldn't say that I don't like this state of affairs.
    some obscure fringe case
    I have a very articulate, highly educated heterosexual male German friend who generally doesn't use "Dein" when he signs off his e-mails to me (also male), and vice versa. In one particular e-mail, I shared some personal difficulties and he e-mailed back expressing his support. For the first time (and the only time since, I think), he used "Dein" in his sign-off. This, to me, was a very appropriate, and much appreciated, expression of support: it was not "uncalled for" or "weird."

    This person would never misuse the accusative, but he did use "Dein" in a situation in which it was appropriate. I hope you'll agree that this is not an "obscure fringe case." Thankfully, the cultural beliefs and attitudes that discourage this use are not so pervasive as to mean that it absolutely can't be done, nor that things can't change gradually. I hope they do.
     
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