der Sache (1991 passage, which includes quote from ca. 1914)

sedmont

Senior Member
English -- USA
I'm not sure about der Sache in the below German passage.

In the below English translation I render der Sache as a position. Does that work in the context?

Thanks for any assistance.


(In the English version, I've slightly rearranged the order of the German version, since English does not use a Doppelpunkt as German uses it below. But the colors correspond in the English and German versions.)

(From a 1991 text, which includes a Helmut von Moltke quote from ca. 1914)
_____________________________________________________________

Auch die apodiktische Abwälzung der Kriegsschuld auf die Alliierten mit den Sätzen: "Deutschland hat den Krieg nicht herbeigeführt, es ist nicht in ihn eingetreten aus Eroberungslust oder aus aggressiven Absichten gegen seine Nachbarn. Der Krieg ist ihm von seinen Gegnern aufgezwungen worden, und wir kämpfen um unsere nationale Existenz, um das Fortbestehen unseres Volkes, unseres nationalen Lebens ... Nie ist von einem Staat ein gerechterer Krieg geführt worden ...", der Sache nach längst widerlegt und von Jones als Produkt einer militärischen Denkart charakterisiert, kann hier nicht im einzelnen kritisiert werden -- das würde eine ausführliche Betrachtung der Vorgeschichte des Krieges verlangen.

_____________________________________________________________

[Moltke also wrote that]
"Germany has not brought about the war and has not entered into it out of lust for conquest or aggressive intent against its neighbors. The war has been forced on Germany by its opponents, and we fight for our national existence, for our continued existence as a people, for our national life … Never has a state carried on a more just war …" This apodictic shifting of war guilt to the Allies, a position long since contradicted by Jones and characterized by him as a product of military thinking, cannot here be criticized in detail, as that would demand an extended consideration of the prehistory of the war.


 
  • manfy

    Senior Member
    German - Austria
    Nuance warning!
    Eine Aussage, die der Sache nach widerlegt ist, ist nicht zwingend eine Aussage, die in ihrer Gesamtheit als widerlegt angesehen werden kann!

    I'm not so sure how to translate that though. It's something like the core of this statement or viewpoint has long since been refuted, the crux of the matter, heart of the matter, .... or something ... :rolleyes:
     

    anahiseri

    Senior Member
    Spanish (Spain) and German (Germany)
    you're right, manfy. We have to find a better phrase.
    I think I've found it, with the help of Google:

    This apodictic shifting of war guilt to the Allies, in the essence of the matter long since refuted, and characterized by Jones
     
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    manfy

    Senior Member
    German - Austria
    Sounds good!
    I just had the same idea with slightly different wording, "...a matter long since refuted in its essence, and characterized by Jones ..."
     

    bearded

    Senior Member
    I have a doubt which will be hopefully solved by 'native' friends. Nowadays, the meaning of ''der Sache nach'' is 'essentially/substantially' or similar, but in the given context could ''der Sache nach'' not mean 'according to the facts/objectively'?
    ''A matter/a statement rejected according to the facts, a statement contradicted by facts'' : that would make sense. Is such an interpretation (der Sache nach = gemäß den Tatsachen) at all possible? Thank you.
     

    anahiseri

    Senior Member
    Spanish (Spain) and German (Germany)
    Sache
    from the DUDEN, I think this corresponds to our proposals

    Gegenstand, um den es geht; Gegenstand der Diskussion; eigentliches Thema
    Beispiele
    • so kommen wir der Sache schon näher
    • bleib bitte bei der Sache
    • um die Sache herumreden
    • etwas von der Sache verstehen
    • in Wahrheit geht es ihm gar nicht um die Sache [selbst]
    • kommen Sie bitte zur Sache
     
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    manfy

    Senior Member
    German - Austria
    your phrasing is better than mine
    :) Not really, actually. Just a different way of expressing the same idea.

    Is such an interpretation (der Sache nach = gemäß den Tatsachen) at all possible? Thank you.
    I feel that the equal sign is wrong (from a German point of view). However, the connotation of 'gemäß den Tatsachen' is well within the bounds of this phrase 'der Sache nach'. The real proplem with 'Tatsachen' is, what kind of facts can there be when we're talking about mere claims and/or blame-shifting from one opponent to the other? Therefore I'd try to avoid the definiteness of the word 'fact' and stick to a "broader" alternative -- just like the German version did.
     

    sedmont

    Senior Member
    English -- USA
    Thanks very much anahiseri, manfy, and bearded. I missed that "der Sache nach" is a unit. I find the phrase translated in a couple of dictionaries as "in substance", which is essentially what anahiseri and manfy are pointing to.

    Question:
    Does the German sentence say that Jones both refuted and characterized?

    Or does the sentence leave vague who did the refuting long ago (but imply it was not Jones), and specify only that Jones "characterized..."?
     
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    bearded

    Senior Member
    Or does the sentence leave vague who did the refuting long ago (but imply it was not Jones), and specify only that Jones "characterized..."?
    Yes, I think it is the correct interpretation.
    My hypothesis was clearly unfounded. I now realize that the passage was written in 1991, therefore ''der Sache nach'' does have the current meaning... ((originally I had found a kind of symmetry ('1)der Sache nach..widerlegt, und (2)von Jones....charakterisiert', like ''on the one side contradicted according to/based on the facts, and on the other side characterized by Jones...'')). Although now such a symmetry does not exist, only 'charakterisiert' refers to Jones in my opinion, as shown in #6 by Manfy's translation.
     
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