Deviating names for Italy (Włochy, Olaszország)

[yuggoth]

La forma de denominar a un país o a sus habitantes puede variar de unas lenguas a otras,dependiendo del grupo étnico al que se haga referencia entre los varios que lo puedan poblar o haber poblado.

Así,al pueblo que los franceses,españoles y portugueses entre otros denominan alemanes por los alamanes,los ingleses los llaman germanos,mientras que los países eslavos y del Este les llaman nemet (desconozco la razón),y son denominados por los italianos y por ellos mismos teutones (tedesco,deutsch).De la misma manera,el pueblo que habita Finlandia se denomina a sí mismo Suomen,aquél al que casi todo el mundo llama griegos se refiere a sí mismo por el nombre de los helenos,y por fin,el pueblo al que casi todo el mundo llama húngaros (por considerarlos descendientes de los hunos de Atila) se denominan a sí mismos magiares.

Mientras que todas las lenguas que conozco designan a los italianos de forma similar,este último pueblo los llama "olasz",y a su país,Italia, "Olászország" (de ország,"país",y olasz,"italiano").

¿Conoce alguien,nativo o no nativo de Italia,algún pueblo de la Península Itálica denominado de forma parecida que pueda dar una explicación?
Gracias.

 

[Jana337]

Hola Yuggoth,

I moved your thread to Other Languages where, I hope, it will have a higher chance of collecting accurate replies.
Before I forget, here's a similar thread about German(y) where you can find an explanation of the Slavic expression for Germany and its language.

Now, your question: In fact, it is not just Hungarian. Poles call Italy "Włochy". I am not sure it is obvious to your ears but it is a cognate of the Hungarian Olaszország (ország - country). Also in Czech, we used to call Italians "Vlaši" (Vlach in the singular) but it is now dated, although still understood.

Etymology links:
http://www.orbilat.com/General_Survey/Terms--Wallachians_Walloons_Welschen_etc.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walha
http://en.allexperts.com/e/h/hi/history_of_the_term_vlach.htm

 

[jonquiliser]

Hola:

Yo no conocía este nombre de los italianos en húngaro (a pesar de supuestamente ser una lengua hermana del finés, no entiendo ni una palabra), pero por curiosidad hice una búsqueda en Google, y esto es lo que encontré:

e la lingua ungherese ci fornisce un'indicazione precisa su chi siano quelli "in alto" (chiamano l'Italia "OLASZ") : : L'ungherese "olasz", come il polacco "wloski" (con la "l" tagliata) derivano in realtà dal latino "Volcae" (greco
traslitterato: "Ouòlkai"), nome con cui gli antichi germanici conoscevano i
loro vicini Celti, abitanti le regioni del nord Italia e della Gallia.

O sea que, si lo he entendido bien , es una derivación del latín (Volcae).

 

[OldAvatar]

La forma de denominar a un país o a sus habitantes puede variar de unas lenguas a otras,dependiendo del grupo étnico al que se haga referencia entre los varios que lo puedan poblar o haber poblado.

Así,al pueblo que los franceses,españoles y portugueses entre otros denominan alemanes por los alamanes,los ingleses los llaman germanos,mientras que los países eslavos y del Este les llaman nemet (desconozco la razón),y son denominados por los italianos y por ellos mismos teutones (tedesco,deutsch).De la misma manera,el pueblo que habita Finlandia se denomina a sí mismo Suomen,aquél al que casi todo el mundo llama griegos se refiere a sí mismo por el nombre de los helenos,y por fin,el pueblo al que casi todo el mundo llama húngaros (por considerarlos descendientes de los hunos de Atila) se denominan a sí mismos magiares.

Mientras que todas las lenguas que conozco designan a los italianos de forma similar,este último pueblo los llama "olasz",y a su país,Italia, "Olászország" (de ország,"país",y olasz,"italiano").

¿Conoce alguien,nativo o no nativo de Italia,algún pueblo de la Península Itálica denominado de forma parecida que pueda dar una explicación?
Gracias.

Wallach is the the term initially used by Germanic tribes to name the more or less Latinised Barbarians (Celtics, Gothics, Dacians and even other Germanic tribes) living in the border areas of the Roman Empire. Vallachia is such a province, for example, but not only. You can find the same etymology in Valonia, Wales etc.

 

[yuggoth]

Hola Yuggoth,

I moved your thread to Other Languages where, I hope, it will have a higher chance of collecting accurate replies.
Before I forget, here's a similar thread about German(y) where you can find an explanation of the Slavic expression for Germany and its language.

Now, your question: In fact, it is not just Hungarian. Poles call Italy "Włochy". I am not sure it is obvious to your ears but it is a cognate of the Hungarian Olaszország (ország - country). Also in Czech, we used to call Italians "Vlaši" (Vlach in the singular) but it is now dated, although still understood.

Etymology links:
http://www.orbilat.com/General_Survey/Terms--Wallachians_Walloons_Welschen_etc.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walha
http://en.allexperts.com/e/h/hi/history_of_the_term_vlach.htm

Dêkuji.!(Sorry,my keyboard don't have the other accent)Well,with a bit of acoustic imagination,there is a relative similarity for my pair of Hispanic ears.But is the old Czech form which has made me think that the islands of former Byzantium Empire population in the East were called "Vlach",or else,especially the ones who speak languages near to Romanian (in Romania,Greece,Greek Epyros,Macedonia,Istria...).
I didn't know its meaning was "italian"!
Thank you again for your useful help!.And for the tread about the denomination of Germans among the Slavic people!I was very curious about it too!

 

[Thomas1]

[...]

Now, your question: In fact, it is not just Hungarian. Poles call Italy "Włochy". I am not sure it is obvious to your ears but it is a cognate of the Hungarian Olaszország (ország - country). Also in Czech, we used to call Italians "Vlaši" (Vlach in the singular) but it is now dated, although still understood.
[...]

Jana, could you please elaborate on the part saying it [Włochy(?)--Tom] is a cognate of the Hungarian Olaszország?



Thank you,
Tom

 

[OldAvatar]

Jana, could you please elaborate on the part saying it [Włochy(?)--Tom] is a cognate of the Hungarian Olaszország?



Thank you,
Tom

As far as I know, Hungarians used the word Olah (it was a term used to name Romanians, as well) for Latinised people. It was rather difficult for them to pronounce the Slavic Vlah (Vlakh) and they changed the letter V with an O. But of course, a native Hungarian speaker may explain it better than I do.

Best regards

 

[yuggoth]

Hola:

Yo no conocía este nombre de los italianos en húngaro (a pesar de supuestamente ser una lengua hermana del finés, no entiendo ni una palabra), pero por curiosidad hice una búsqueda en Google, y esto es lo que encontré:



O sea que, si lo he entendido bien , es una derivación del latín (Volcae).

Gracias por tu aportación,que también me ha iluminado mucho.
Bueno,el húngaro y el finés deben estar tan emparentados como el español y el lituano,que pertenecen entre sí a la misma familia.¿De todas formas,los fineses también sois muy raros para nombrar a otros países:Ruotsi,Ranska,Saksa (este último debe de provenir de "Saxon",verdad?)

 

[Jana337]

Jana, could you please elaborate on the part saying it [Włochy(?)--Tom] is a cognate of the Hungarian Olaszország?

I am convinced that both come from the same Gaelic word Walh. In fact, it is more obvious to me when I consider the Czech word Vlach (and in particular its plural, Vlaši), which is obviously related to the Polish name.

The Romance-speaking pastoralists on the Balkan peninsula were in permanent movement and beginning sometimes in the 10th or 11th c. they have gradually migrated northwards, from the Balkan mountain across the Danube, in the Carpathian region, concentrating first in Transylvania, especially in the region of Fagaras (Fagarash). The Hungarians who by then dominated this province, referred to them as Oláh. Source

Vlach and Oláh - can't be pure chance in my opinion.

But I cannot prove it. I hope a Hungarian speaker arrives and enlightens us.

 

[OldAvatar]

The Romance-speaking pastoralists on the Balkan peninsula were in permanent movement and beginning sometimes in the 10th or 11th c. they have gradually migrated northwards, from the Balkan mountain across the Danube, in the Carpathian region, concentrating first in Transylvania, especially in the region of Fagaras (Fagarash).

That's an info being under a serious debate. It is not an universally accepted statement.

 

[yuggoth]

Wallach is the the term initially used by Germanic tribes to name the more or less Latinised Barbarians (Celtics, Gothics, Dacians and even other Germanic tribes) living in the border areas of the Roman Empire. Vallachia is such a province, for example, but not only. You can find the same etymology in Valonia, Wales etc.

Mult,umesc.Your explanation is very clear and helpful too.

 

[Jana337]

That's an info being under a serious debate. It is not an universally accepted statement.

What exactly? Also the name Oláh for Romanian (or other Romance) speakers?

 

[OldAvatar]

What exactly? Also the name Oláh for Romanian (or other Romance) speakers?

This:

they have gradually migrated northwards, from the Balkan mountain across the Danube, in the Carpathian region, concentrating first in Transylvania, especially in the region of Fagaras (Fagarash)

The name Vlach is obviously of Germanic origin and it was used even by the Celts. So, the northwards migration of the Vlachs is a bit dubious and it is, at least, a forced theory, since there were not Celts, Goths or other Germanic tribes in the Balkans.

 

[Outsider]

I am convinced that both come from the same Gaelic word Walh.

Creía que la palabra era originalmente germánica...

 

[Whodunit]

Creía que la palabra era originalmente germánica...

Hm, can you prove it? I know you said "creer," but where do you take your assumption from?

When I read the word "Vlach" in Jana's post, I first thought of the German "Wallach" (= gelding). Here's what my Duden Herkunftswörterbuch gives (translated):

Wallach: "Gelded male horse": The word being recorded in the late 15th century originally desribed a gelded horse from Wallachia. The name of the folk (Wallachians) is derived from Slavic, compare Bulgarian vlach "Wallachian." The Slavic word itself is borrowed from the word
↑welsch.

Looking up welsch:

welsch: The Old Germanic adjective (MHG walhisch, welsch, OHG wal[a]hisc "Romanian," Dutch Waals "Walloon," English Welsch, Swedish välsk "Romanian") refers back to a Germanic noun that was originally used for the Celtic citizens in the Western European territories and is the root for the Celtic tribal name Volcae. [...] After the occupation of the Celtic territories by the Romans, the designation devolved upon the Romanian population there, especially upon those in Gallia and Italy. Compare also walnut.

I hope it helps.

 

[Athaulf]

Vlach and Oláh - can't be pure chance in my opinion.

But I cannot prove it. I hope a Hungarian speaker arrives and enlightens us.

I'm not a Hungarian speaker, but I've seen this etymology (vlach -> olasz) casually mentioned in several places (e.g. here) without a slightest hint of controversy, so I don't think it's doubtful.

Hungarians also use a slightly different version of the same word (olah, I think) as an ethnic slur for Romanians. Interestingly, variations of Vlach are also used throughout the Balkans with at least a dozen different local meanings as a slur against various ethnic, regional, and religious groups (see here for an incomplete list of such meanings). I never really understood exactly why this word has been such a popular choice for this purpose.

 

[Jana337]

I'm not a Hungarian speaker, but I've seen this etymology (vlach -> olasz) casually mentioned in several places (e.g. here) without a slightest hint of controversy, so I don't think it's doubtful.

Hungarians also use a slightly different version of the same word (olah, I think) as an ethnic slur for Romanians.

Which reminds me of a particular Roma tribe (or a Gypsy tribe - I think the community in question really scorns the more PC name "Roma") that came to Central Europe from Romania, where they had been enslaved until 1856, in the second half of the 19th century. They are called "olašští Romové", where the adjective is supposed to indicate Walachia, a Romanian region.

 

[Lugubert]

Swedish välsk "Romanian"

is slightly narrow. Conventional wisdom always gives "foreign" as the primary meaning. An etymological dictionary adds "Romanian, Celtic" and refers to a Germanic *walha-. It confirms several words mentioned above, like Welsh and Walloon. The walnut seems to be in the root family as well, as does Welsh leek.

 

[OldAvatar]

Which reminds me of a particular Roma tribe (or a Gypsy tribe - I think the community in question really scorns the more PC name "Roma") that came to Central Europe from Romania, where they had been enslaved until 1856, in the second half of the 19th century. They are called "olašští Romové", where the adjective is supposed to indicate Walachia, a Romanian region.

I don't think that gipsies used that Romové in any connection with Roman world. The origin of Romani/Romales is of Hindi Rahma (Rama, Roma) and has nothing to do with Rome or Roma, Romanian or whatever.

 

[Jana337]

I don't think that gipsies used that Romové in any connection with Roman world. The etymology of Romales people are in Hindi word Rahma (Rama, Roma) and has nothing to do with Rome or Roma, Romanian or whatever.

Of course not. I never said that. It's just the adjective (olašští, Walachian) describing one of the Roma tribes that refers to a Romanian region.

 

[OldAvatar]

Of course not. I never said that. It's just the adjective (olašští, Walachian) describing one of the Roma tribes that refers to a Romanian region.

That's probably true. As a matter of fact, one of their dialect is called Vlax Romani.

 

[yuggoth]

What exactly? Also the name Oláh for Romanian (or other Romance) speakers?

I think he speaks about the origine of Romanians (especially why they speak a Romanic language wo is isolated of the rest), and if there is a relation or not between Romanian and other islands of population that speak similar languages (Aromunics, Kutsovallaquians, Vallaquians from Istria, Macedonia, Greek Epyrus, etc).