Did TÖRE enter Turkic from Aramaic throught Khazarians?

ancalimon

Senior Member
Turkish
Töre means law, rule, things that people had been doing since time immemorial (which comes from the past and not recorded but known by heart - learned through ancestors - memorized and still practiced without knowing why at all). Did it enter Turkic languages from Aramaic through Khazars (some Judaist Turks)?

Torah > Töre ?

According to Mahmud of Kashgar, the word Türk also comes from Töre meaning law abiding-knowing.
 
Last edited:
  • Frank06

    Senior Member
    Nederlands / Dutch (Belgium)
    Töre means law, rule, things that people had been doing since time immemorial (which comes from the past and not recorded but known by heart - learned through ancestors - memorized and still practiced without knowing why at all). Did it enter Turkic languages from Aramaic through Khazars (some Judaist Turks)?Torah > Töre ?
    Is there any real, non-Ancalimonian indication that the two words are related in the first place? That Tu. Töre is a loan? It's a very open question, since it is not clear from your post.

    According to Mahmud of Kashgar, the word Türk also comes from Töre meaning law abiding-knowing.
    If your Mahmud of Kashgar is the same dude as Mahmud (ibn Hussayn ibn Muhammad) al-Kashgari, which Wikipedia tells us is an 11th century lexicographer from... wait, wait... The 11th century? Are you serious?
     

    er targyn

    Senior Member
    Of course töre can't be from Aramaic.
    Proto-Turkic: *töre-

    Meaning: to be born, originate

    Old Turkic: törü- (Orkh., OUygh.)
    Karakhanid: törü- (MK, KB)
    ...
    Proto-Turkic: *tȫr

    Meaning: honorary place in the house

    Old Turkic: tör (OUygh.)
    Karakhanid: tör (KB), töre (MK)
    ...
    Proto-Turkic: *töŕ

    Meaning: 1 foundation, root 2 origin, ancestors

    Old Turkic: töz (OUygh.) 2
    Karakhanid: töz (MK, KB) 2
    ...
    Comment: Turk. *törü 'law' is probably an old derivative of *töŕ: *törgü, with an early disappearance of *-g-: cf. Hung. törvény < Old Chuv., pointing to *-g-. Mong. *töre may be < Turk. (see TMN 1, 266), though not necessarily so. Source: http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/query.cgi?root=config&morpho=0&basename=\data\alt\turcet

     

    Frank06

    Senior Member
    Nederlands / Dutch (Belgium)
    Is there any real, non-Ancalimonian indication that the two words are related in the first place? That Tu. Töre is a loan? It's a very open question, since it is not clear from your post.
    Of course töre can't be from Aramaic.
    Proto-Turkic: *töre-
    Meaning: to be born, originate
    [...]
    Thank you er targyn for sorting this out! If I may believe the time stamps, it took a search of 15 minutes, Ancalimon, 15, to find an anwer to your question. But apparently, you're not interested in answers, which makes me wonder why you ask the dodgy questions in the first place.

    What's on your agenda, Ancalimon?
    It's very clear by now that linguistics is not on your agenda, so what is?
     

    ancalimon

    Senior Member
    Turkish
    There are so many similar words between Turkic and other languages that I don't know how to find which ones share the same roots. I'm also not very good at researching them so I seek help here. Sorry if I made you upset.
     

    Frank06

    Senior Member
    Nederlands / Dutch (Belgium)
    Sorry if I made you upset.
    I am not upset.
    There are so many similar words between Turkic and other languages that I don't know how to find which ones share the same roots. I'm also not very good at researching them so I seek help here.
    How many times do you need to get presented the explanation that (mere) similarity isn't really the best way to do linguistics? How many more posts with "questions" about "similar words" need to get answered before you understand this incredibly basic issue?

    Can't we move on to a slightly higher level than 11th century inspired (and older, look at Plato), or at least pre-scientific/pre-linguistic notions of similarity.
    We had Ten Kate, Jones, Grimm, Verner, the neo-grammarians (and let's not forget the Indian tradition), you name her, him or it. We have incredible linguists, incredible resources, incredible methods, incredible insights, incredible books, libraries, readable and accessible stuff... and yet we're forced to struggle once again with some pre-modern ideas.
    Is it really impossible to move away from the almost kabalistic, non-linguistic, incredibly naive way of looking at languages? Please?

    Besides, have you ever tried the pages with the resources (which includes http://starling.rinet.ru/, the website that gives you an answer in less than 15 minutes to most of your questions related to Turkish/-ic?

    It would take me too much fantasy to imagine that your aims here are of a linguistic nature. So, again what's your agenda?
     
    Last edited:

    ancalimon

    Senior Member
    Turkish
    Frank06: I really don't want to bore you with details and this is not the place to discuss it. Even if I gave all the details it would require me to talk about other subjects such as shapes,letters (or tamgas) which are not totally related with etymology (or at least not related yet). Still it would be incredibly hard for me to make people catch my train of thought here.

    To cut it short, I'm inclined to think that religions are related with Turkic languages but since religions themselves are vague concepts, the most people would think is that I'm interested in some kind of pseudo-science. (I guess anything which involves people dividing seas, moon in two or resurrecting dead people is "pseudo") "I" (and me alone) simply think Turkic had an enormous influence on most of the religions and I'm also open to the opposite ideas (since töre has an enormous effect on Turkic culture in general. You should be seeing Turkish men in Germany killing their ex-wives having affairs with other men in the name of töre even today). My agenda here is to catch things which I couldn't think of myself in the hope that they could help me on my research (which concerns me and only me and is related to the supreme secret name of the God: http://salmanspiritual.com/light.html which may or may not be related with linguistics). I'm also interested in the sound vibrations words make and their effects on the human subconscious and whether I can relate words from various languages with the effects they have on the human subconscious.. Since all of these shouldn't concern people interested in "pure" linguistics I felt the liberty to not discuss all of these and bore people to death on these forums. Since you were very interested, I gave a short answer. (so no: I'm not a Pan-Turkist or a Sun Language Theory believer not that that would be a bad thing at all if done correctly and not like the stupidity when it was first talked about)

    The answers I find in different resources don't usually match each other (especially regarding Turkic languages maybe because there's some kind of taboo about talking about anything regarding Turks and the past (I don't know if it's like this in Germany or England or Arabia) in Turkey and linguistics is a new science in "republic of" Turkey ) so I seek recent answers to my questions.
    Thanks for answering my question.
     
    Last edited:
    < Previous | Next >
    Top