Difference between -su ending verb and causative

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  • ktdd

    Senior Member
    Mandarin - Beijing
    There are actually two ways of forming causatives.

    In Classical Japanese, the causative is formed by adding す/さす to the 未然形 of the verb
    if the 未然形 ends in /a/, add す: 行く=>いか+す=行かす
    if the 未然形 ends not in /a/, add さす: 見る=>み+さす=見さす
    The resulting verb conjugates in 下二段, i.e.
    行かせ(ず)・行かせ(たり)・行かす(。)・行かする(とき)・行かすれ(ども)・行かせよ(!)
    見させ(ず)・見させ(たり)・見さす(。)・見さする(とき)・見さすれ(ども)・見させよ(!)
    And the causative of the verb す(equivalent of する) is often abbreviated: せさす=>さす

    The modern causative forming せる/させる is simply the result of 一段化 of す/さす
    行かせ(ない)・行かせ(た)・行かせる(。)・行かせる(とき)・行かせれ(ば)・行かせろ(!)
    見させ(ない)・見させ(た)・見させる(。)・見させる(とき)・見させれ(ば)・見させろ(!)
    This form is the most commonly used and is taught in textbooks as the standard causative form.

    But there is another route to take which is 五段化
    行かさ(ない)・行かし(た)・行かす(。)・行かす(とき)・行かせ(ば)・行かせ(!)
    見ささ(ない)・見さし(た)・見さす(。)・見さす(とき)・見させ(ば)・見させ(!)
    This form is rarely used and usually not covered by textbooks but it exists.
    The first row of this form can be used to further form causative-passive, i.e. instead of 行かせられる you can say 行かされる (but ~さされる is not allowed).

    Some godan-verbs apparently originate from causative, for example 飛ばす. But through usage they may have acquired other meanings than pure causative (try looking up いかす in 新明解).
    I guess it goes without saying that not all su-ending verbs are causative in nature, for example 殺す(the vowel before /su/ isn't /a/) or 話す(no non-causative counterpart to be found).

    If that's too much information, here's the shorter answer:
    If the su-ending verb comes from the older causative form, then it's safe to say they mean the same thing.
     

    DaylightDelight

    Senior Member
    Japanese - Tokyo
    -su ending form sounds somewhat regional to me, especially of Osaka area.
    言わせるな (don't make me say that!) = Tokyo area.
    言わすな (ditto) = Osaka area.
     

    KaleNovice

    Senior Member
    Chinese
    There are actually two ways of forming causatives.

    In Classical Japanese, the causative is formed by adding す/さす to the 未然形 of the verb
    if the 未然形 ends in /a/, add す: 行く=>いか+す=行かす
    if the 未然形 ends not in /a/, add さす: 見る=>み+さす=見さす
    The resulting verb conjugates in 下二段, i.e.
    行かせ(ず)・行かせ(たり)・行かす(。)・行かする(とき)・行かすれ(ども)・行かせよ(!)
    見させ(ず)・見させ(たり)・見さす(。)・見さする(とき)・見さすれ(ども)・見させよ(!)
    And the causative of the verb す(equivalent of する) is often abbreviated: せさす=>さす

    The modern causative forming せる/させる is simply the result of 一段化 of す/さす
    行かせ(ない)・行かせ(た)・行かせる(。)・行かせる(とき)・行かせれ(ば)・行かせろ(!)
    見させ(ない)・見させ(た)・見させる(。)・見させる(とき)・見させれ(ば)・見させろ(!)
    This form is the most commonly used and is taught in textbooks as the standard causative form.

    But there is another route to take which is 五段化
    行かさ(ない)・行かし(た)・行かす(。)・行かす(とき)・行かせ(ば)・行かせ(!)
    見ささ(ない)・見さし(た)・見さす(。)・見さす(とき)・見させ(ば)・見させ(!)
    This form is rarely used and usually not covered by textbooks but it exists.
    The first row of this form can be used to further form causative-passive, i.e. instead of 行かせられる you can say 行かされる (but ~さされる is not allowed).

    Some godan-verbs apparently originate from causative, for example 飛ばす. But through usage they may have acquired other meanings than pure causative (try looking up いかす in 新明解).
    I guess it goes without saying that not all su-ending verbs are causative in nature, for example 殺す(the vowel before /su/ isn't /a/) or 話す(no non-causative counterpart to be found).

    If that's too much information, here's the shorter answer:
    If the su-ending verb comes from the older causative form, then it's safe to say they mean the same thing.
    What a detailed explanation you have provided! Thank you for taking time to answer my question!
     

    Flaminius

    coclea mod
    日本語 / japāniski / יפנית
    According to 大阪弁普及協会 (pages down since 2015, retrieved from an archive site), people from Ōsaka use す・さす (s.v.) for causative forms:
    使役。五段動詞は、行かす、飲ます、遊ばす、減す、載す、一段動詞は、見さす、食べさす、などとなる。
    Another entry させる (s.v.) is glossed as:
    使役。謙譲語。一段動詞やカ変動詞の他、五段動詞の未然形につく。
    Examples given are self-deprecating forms derived from causatives with benefactive verbs:
    きょうはこれで終わらさしてもらいます、先に飲まさしてもらえますやろか、わてにも食べさしとくんなはれ

    More self-deprecating forms can be found in さしてもらう (Q 106_2). Here again, the examples given include both vowel-stem and consonant-stem verbs.


    While the pages emphasizes how させる applies to all types of verbs in Ōsaka, せる/させる is listed as the citation form in a conjugation paradigm in another page (search for 使役 in the page). These explanations suggest to me that it is only recently that させる came to dominate causative and self-deprecating formations. So yes, 行かす is a typical Osakan feature and the younger the speaker is, the more likely they are to use the form. (Assuming that younger generations are less conservative in speech.)
     

    frequency

    Senior Member
    Japanese
    causative of 言う (言わせる) and 言わす ?
    Good. 言わす is a verb and 言わせる is 連語(使役) but they have the same meaning. を doesn't work with 言わす much but not impossible.
    I mean that you're going to use both for 使役. You're going to have your little sister speak frightening things.

    妹に恐ろしいことを言わす: informally okay. I think this may be an alternative of 言わせる.
    妹に恐ろしいことを言わせる is better.
     
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