distinct roots for "oak" and "acorn"

[Gavril]

For unclear (to me) reasons, it seems common that the word for "acorn" comes from a completely different root than the word for "oak", despite acorns being distinctive-looking nuts that come only from oak trees.

Here's a sampling from several European languages:

English oak / acorn (which are unrelated despite an overlap in some of the sounds)
Spanish roble / bellota
Finnish tammi / terho
Russian dub / zholud'
Hungarian tölgy / makk.

Contrary examples (German Eichel, Scots oak-nut) seem much harder to find.

What do you think is the most likely explanation for this discrepancy?



So far, my best theory is that terms for "oak" tend to be somewhat prone to replacement (perhaps especially in regions that have many different kinds of oaks), and this has a way of severing any relationship that may exist between a language's terms for "oak" and "acorn".

E.g. the Romance terms for "oak" differ significantly among the languages, the Baltic and Slavic words for "oak" don't match, southwestern Slavic has hrast whereas most other Slavic languages have dub or similar, and so on.

Terms for "acorn" may be just as prone to replacement if not more (in Germanic, they appear to be less stable than the "oak" term), but their replacement doesn't move in lock-step with replacement of the terms for the tree.

 

[Frank78]

English oak / acorn (which are unrelated despite an overlap in some of the sounds)

Are you sure they're unrelated? In Old English they had the same stem.

oak -> æc
acorn -> æcern

Or is this just coincidence?

 

[berndf]

Are you sure they're unrelated? In Old English they had the same stem.

oak -> æc
acorn -> æcern

Or is this just coincidence?

Yes. Acorn is cognate to German Eckern. The original meaning is something like fruit/nut of a tree. In English and German the meaning of this generic word has been narrowed to the fruits of a specific tree, in English to those of an oak tree and in German to those of a beech tree.

 

[Welsh_Sion]

'Celtic acorns'

Welsh: 'mesen' /'mɛsɛn/
1 'acorn'
2 'gland'
3 'measles in animals' (< Middle English)

Old Cornish: mesin

Middle Breton: mes
Late Breton: mez

Middle Irish: mess

All meanings (other than Welsh 2 and 3 above) indicate the 'fruits of trees' - not just oak trees. (cf. Welsh: mes (y) ffawydd 'beechmast'.)

_____________________

'Celtic oaks'

Welsh: derw, derwen

Breton: derven

Gaulish: Dervus (eponym)

Brythonic: Derventio (< Celtic: *derv-, related to English 'tree' and Gothic triu < *deru- 'wood')

Geiriadur Prifysgol Cymru 'derw' and 'mes'

Of course, the oak is an important part of Celtic culture - one thinks of the historic Druidae whose name may mean, 'those steeped in oak-lore' or 'Oak-seers'.)

 

[Abaye]

In Hebrew, בלוט ballut = acorn and אלון allon = oak are not related.

Yet I think that Aramaic/Arabic بلوط ballut means both oak and acorn, and so is Akkadian 𒀠𒆷𒀭 ʾallānu.

 

[AutumnOwl]

Yes. Acorn is cognate to German Eckern. The original meaning is something like fruit/nut of a tree. In English and German the meaning of this generic word has been narrowed to the fruits of a specific tree, in English to those of an oak tree and in German to those of a beech tree.

Oak in Swedish is "ek", and "ekollon" is acorn. "Bok" is beech, and its fruit is "bokollon".
"Ek" in Svensk etymologisk ordbok - 115 (Svensk etymologisk ordbok)

In the same book there's a discussion about "ollon", and the meaning is 'edible fruit/nut', related to an Old Swedish word "aldon / aldin". The word "akarn" have been used dialectical for acorn, from the Danish "agern", and German "ecker". 545 (Svensk etymologisk ordbok)

 

[apmoy70]

In Modern Greek, acorn is «βαλανίδι» [valaˈniði] (neut.) or «βελανίδι» [ve̞laˈniði] (neut.) < Byzantine Greek neuter diminutive «βαλανίδιον» /βɐlɐˈniði(o)n/ < Classical feminine noun «βάλανος» /ˈbɐlɐnos/ (PIE *gʷlh₂- acorn cf. Arm. կաղին /kałin/, Alb. lend).
The tree is «βαλανιδιά» [valaniˈðʲa] (fem.) or «βελανιδιά» [ve̞laniˈðʲa] (fem.), obviously related.

In Ancient Greek on the other hand, while acorn is «βάλανος», the tree is the 3rd declension feminine noun «δρῦς» /ˈdrŷːs/ (nom. sing.), «δρυός» /dryˈos/ (gen. sing.), with cognates the Skt. दारु /ˈdɑːɾuː/, wood (< *doru- wood, tree), Alb. dru, wood, tree, (< *druu̯ā), Go. triu (< *trewa).
In Modern Greek «δρυς» [ˈðɾis̠] (fem.) is the formal, scientific name of the genus (quercus in Latin).

Alternatively, in some Ancient Greek dialects, both the oak tree and the acorn are «φηγός» /pʰɛːˈgos/ (fem.) - in Attic & Classical Greek it's the beech tree - with Tsakonian being one of the two MoGr dialects using a word descended from it: «φαγό» [faˈɣo̞] (neut.) --> acorn < Doric variant «φᾱγός» /pʰɐːˈgos/ (fem.). The other is the Griko dialect in S. Italy: «φάγο» [ˈfaɣɔ] (neut.), from Doric also.

 

[Penyafort]

Catalan

acorn:
- gla, from Latin glande (ablative of glans 'acorn, acorn-shaped things', from the PIE root for acorn, *gʷelh₂)
- bellota [beʎɔ́ta] (in Western Catalan), from Arabic بَلُّوطَة ballúṭa (singulative of ballúṭ 'oak; acorn', from Aramaic)

oak: (= deciduous Quercus)
- roure, from Latin robore (ablative of robur 'oak', from an older robus 'red', ultimately from PIE *h₁rewdʰ, probably due to its reddish wood)

oak: (= evergreen Quercus)
(evergreen oaks, typical for Mediterraneans)
- alzina (or aulina), from the Late Latin ilicina (feminine adjective for the ilex 'evergreen oak')
(holm oaks, typical in Iberia, similar to the one above)
- carrasca, presumably from *karrika, from a pre-Roman SW European root *karr- plus a Celtic suffix -ika
(cork oaks, typical in Iberia too)
- surera, from suro 'cork', from the Latin suber for both cork and cork oaks.
(kermes oaks, typical in the Mediterranean)
- garric, from the same origin as the carrasca above

Also:
- glaner, from gla plus the suffix -er, common for trees, can be a synonym for both roure and alzina
- bellotera, from bellota, a synonym in Western Catalan for alzina

 

[Gavril]

So far, my best theory is that terms for "oak" tend to be somewhat prone to replacement (perhaps especially in regions that have many different kinds of oaks), and this has a way of severing any relationship that may exist between a language's terms for "oak" and "acorn".

Also, languages spoken in regions with a diverse range of oaks may not have a single, catch-all term for "oak" to begin with. Even if a language technically has one, not all speakers will necessarily be familiar with it or use it often.

This may have a further effect of distancing (lexically) acorns from the trees they originate in.

 

[Frank78]

Yes. Acorn is cognate to German Eckern. The original meaning is something like fruit/nut of a tree. In English and German the meaning of this generic word has been narrowed to the fruits of a specific tree, in English to those of an oak tree and in German to those of a beech tree.

Another odd fact: In card games (with a German deck) "Eicheln" (acorns) is sometimes called "Eckern".

 

[Gavril]

Zhólud' (['ʐɔɫʊtʲ]), to be precise (the underlying letter behind "е" here is "ё"; the dictionary spelling is жёлудь).

Thanks.

I think I got this term from Google Translate, but after testing a few more examples that I know contain "ё", it appears that Google Translate doesn't recognize the "ё" character at all. Very odd.

 

[Ben Jamin]

In Norwegian 'oak' is 'eik' and 'acorn' is 'eikenøtt" (oak nut).

 

[Terio]

French chêne (the tree) comes from casnus, from *cassanus, probably Gaulish or pre-Gaulish, maybe from Greek

(Fr. : châtaigne., Sp.: castaña, etc., Engl. chestnut)

(Ref. : Trésor de la langue française.)

Gland (the fruit) is obviously cognate to catalan gla (post # 8). The same word is used in anatomy (glans, head of the penis).

 

[apmoy70]

...
Gland (the fruit) is obviously cognate to catalan gla (post # 8). The same word is used in anatomy (glans, head of the penis).

Interestingly, «βάλανος» [ˈvalano̞s̠] (fem.) < Classical feminine noun «βάλανος» /ˈbɐlɐnos/ (see post #7) also describes the glans of the penis in both the ancient and the modern language

 

[Cossue]

Galician:

acorn: landra (either from Latin glandula or directly from glans; compare Catalan and French)
belota (south-eastern Galician; from Arab, compare Catalan in #8)

oak: carballo (Quercus robur, Quercus petraea and Quercus pyrenaica, deciduous species)
rebolo (idem)
carba, cerqueiro, cerquiño (idem, when bush-like)
sobreira (Quercus suber)
carrasco (Quercus coccifera)
caxigo (Quercus faginea)

Carba and carballo are substrate words, as are carrasco and caxigo (this one related to French chêne). Cerqueiro and cerquiño probably derive from quercus. Sobreira from suber. Rebolo perhaps from a diminutive of robur.

 

[Penyafort]

Interestingly, «βάλανος» [ˈvalano̞s̠] (fem.) < Classical feminine noun «βάλανος» /ˈbɐlɐnos/ (see post #7) also describes the glans of the penis in both the ancient and the modern language

In Catalan, we distinguish between the evolved word gla for the acorn and the learned word gland for the glans of the penis (or of the clitoris). From your Greek example, we've got the technical prefix balan(o)-, as in balanoide (acorn-shaped), balanitis, etc. However, the vulgar word for the glans is fava, which is not an acorn but a broad bean.

In Spanish, bálano exists as a rather learned synonym for glande. The 'non-Arabic' word for an acorn in Spanish, derived from glande(m), is lande, which is an obsolete or very local term.

Rebolo perhaps from a diminutive of robur.

I think so too. A word I didn't mention for Catalan was the cognate for your rebolo, reboll, used for the Quercus pyrenaica. It certainly looks like coming from a Latin diminutive *ROBULLUS, with a typical unstressed ro- to re- change.

 

[Circunflejo]

The 'non-Arabic' word for an acorn in Spanish, derived from glande(m), is lande, which is an obsolete or very local term.

The non-obsolent term is llande but it's unknown by most people anyway. By the way, glande itself existed in Old Spanish and nowadays there are still adjectives derived from glande like glandífero.

 

[Levia Van Kales]

You

distinct rooots for ”oak” and “acorn”

Me
”It cannot be doubted that the Ock is meant by Cern, and the Ock would seem to have been known as Ce(a)rn at Charney” [leaf 73, ENGLISH RIVER-NAMES. Ekwall]

(oak/Ock/acorn/Cern)

 

[berndf]

There is no connection between the name of river Ock and the English work oak, denoting the tree or anything related to the tree. Ock and oak are entirely unrelated words.

 

[apmoy70]

Catalan

...
(kermes oaks, typical in the Mediterranean)
- garric, from the same origin as the carrasca above
...

Kermes oak is:
(1) «Πουρνάρι» [puɾˈnaɾi] (neut.) < Ottoman Turkish پرنار‎ /pɯɾˈnaɾ/, a boomerang word:
Ancient Greek «πρῖνος» /ˈprîːnos/ (fem.) > Byzantine Greek neuter diminutive «πρινάριον» /priˈnarion/ > Ottoman Turkish پرنار‎ /pɯɾˈnaɾ/. It's the most common name for the plant.
(2) Its formal name is «πρίνος» [ˈpɾino̞s̠] (fem.), see above for etymology.
(3) Dialectally it's known as «περνιά» [pe̞ɾˈɲa] (fem.) in Cyprus, «πουρναριά» [puɾnaɾˈʝa] (fem.) in NW dialects.

 

[OBrasilo]

In Slovenia, oak is hrast, but we also have the word dob for a specific type of oak (quercus robur). Acorn is želod, with stress on the first syllable. At least two of them certainly go back to old slavic - dǫb and želǫdь since they are also attested in Russian. I actually wonder if that last one is related to the word for stomach (Russian želudok, Slovenian želodec), which appears to be a diminutive of it (little acorn).

 

[Olaszinhok]

Italian:
roble - róvere
encina - quercia /ˈkwɛr.t͡ʃa/ from lat. quercĕa feminine of quercus.
bellota - ghianda /ˈgjanda/

 

[apmoy70]

In Slovenia, oak is hrast, but we also have the word dob for a specific type of oak (quercus robur)...

Quercus robur (pedunculate oak) is «ρουπάκι» [ɾuˈpaci] (neut.) here, a Late Byzantine word, the neuter diminutive «ῥωπάκι(ον)» /ɾoˈpaci(on)/ of the earlier 3rd declension masculine noun «ῥώπαξ» /ˈrhɔpak͡s/ (nom. sing.), «ῥώπακος» /ˈrhɔpakos/ (gen. sing.) < Classical 3rd declension feminine noun «ῥώψ» /ˈrʰɔːp͡s/ (nom. sing.), «ῥωπός» /rʰɔːˈpos/ (gen. sing.), commonly used in plural form «ῥῶπες» /ˈrʰɔ̂ːpes/ since Homer.

Quercus ilex (holm oak) is «αριά» [aɾˈʝa] (fem.) which is the ancient name «ἀρίᾱ» /ɐˈriɐː/ (fem.) with synizesis, a Pre-Greek substrate word.

 

[HTML1ish]

You

Me
”It cannot be doubted that the Ock is meant by Cern, and the Ock would seem to have been known as Ce(a)rn at Charney” [leaf 73, ENGLISH RIVER-NAMES. Ekwall]

(oak/Ock/acorn/Cern)

Re: Cern…

QEREN (Hebrew): horn, tusks, rays (of light), peak (of a mountain), corner (of the altar)…note all these things are conical or triangular in shape. One other metaphorical usage is “might/strength”

I think other QEREN-related triangular/conical words include corn, grain, gore (as in a wedge of land), gar (“spear” or the spear-snouted fish), corona (based on rays), crown (based on rays), cone (conical!)

Garrick > “spear king” (gar + rick)

Acorns are also basically conical in shape.

And then there’s the similarity between QEREN and Quercus

The mighty (QEREN) oak has a conical-shaped fruit called an a-corn (QEREN), achornes, or akran, etc

(I’m sure all the conical/triangular words are traced *officially* back to PIE and *sker and *ker. And I’m guessing a connection to Hebrew’s Qeren is a no-no)