Do not say 'suggest (someone) to do something'.

[ray8838]

Below is an extract from Longman Dictionary of Comtemporary English:

!! Do not say 'suggest (someone) to do something'. You can use the following structures:
suggest that somebody do something
• He suggested that we go (NOT suggested us to go) for a drink. You can miss out 'that'
• What do you suggest we do (NOT suggest us to do)?
suggest doing something
• I suggest wearing (NOT suggest to wear) something warm.
suggest something
• She suggested a walk before dinner.


I don't understand why it is ungrammatical to say "suggest to do something". I would regard the infinitive "to do something" as a object (noun phrase), similar to the "wearing "(gerund used as a noun) or "a walk"(noun).

Can you guys "suggest" any reasons behind?

 

[entangledbank]

Verbs vary greatly in what kind of complements they take. 'Suggest' takes the ones listed, but not an infinitive clause. A clause isn't a noun phrase, it's a completely different structure.

suggest that somebody do something: the complement is a subjunctive that-clause.

suggest doing something: the complement is a gerund-participial clause. It's not a noun phrase: the gerund-participle is a verb, not a noun, as you can tell by the fact that it can take an object ('suggest wearing a jumper')

suggest (somebody) to do something: the (second) complement is a to-infinitival clause, which is an entirely different structure from any of the other three.

The fact that you can say, for example, 'I want it' and also 'I want you to go' doesn't mean that 'it' and 'you to go' have any structural similarity - it means rather that 'want' can take several different structures.

 

[panjandrum]

A small aside ...
... you can suggest someone to do something, but it is important to be clear about the meaning.

I suggest Bill to play the part of Hamlet.
If I say that, I am suggesting to someone else, not Bill, that Bill should play Hamlet.

I mention this because it arose in another recent thread about suggest ... which I can't find just at the moment.

 

[ptetpe]

I don't understand why it is ungrammatical to say "suggest to do something". I would regard the infinitive "to do something" as a object (noun phrase), similar to the "wearing "(gerund used as a noun) or "a walk"(noun).

Can you guys "suggest" any reasons behind?

As a suasive verb, suggest can take noun+infinitive construction as an alternative to the that-clause (Quirk, p.1182). However, in

I suggest Bill to play the part of Hamlet.

the infinitive clause "to play the part of Hamlet" acts as predication adjunct (Quirk,p.1202), not noun phrase as you would regard, and you can't leave out the noun "Bill" by saying
* I suggest to play the part of hamlet.

Source: CGEL by Quirk et al.

 

[ray8838]

Verbs vary greatly in what kind of complements they take. 'Suggest' takes the ones listed, but not an infinitive clause. A clause isn't a noun phrase, it's a completely different structure.

suggest that somebody do something: the complement is a subjunctive that-clause.

suggest doing something: the complement is a gerund-participial clause. It's not a noun phrase: the gerund-participle is a verb, not a noun, as you can tell by the fact that it can take an object ('suggest wearing a jumper')

suggest (somebody) to do something: the (second) complement is a to-infinitival clause, which is an entirely different structure from any of the other three.

The fact that you can say, for example, 'I want it' and also 'I want you to go' doesn't mean that 'it' and 'you to go' have any structural similarity - it means rather that 'want' can take several different structures.

entangledbank,

I am afraid I can't share your opinion.

To my understanding, a clause is a complete sentence (subject +verb), while a phrase is NOT a complete sentence (normally a preposition followed by noun(s). But both clause and phrase can function as an adverb , an adjective, a subject or an object. When they act as a subject or an object, they are noun clause or phrase (noun equivalent)

Gerund is also a noun equivalent. As gerund emerges from an verb, it has the characteristics of an verb and can carry an object. But the basic nature is a noun (or a noun equivalent)

So, when I say "I suggest something",

something is a noun. But a noun may take different formats, i.e. phrase, gerund, or a clause. But whatever formats it takes, it is a noun or noun equivalent.


My question here is that:

While "something" may take the forms of clause (that....) or gerund, why can't it take the form of noun phrase (infinitive), given all of them are noun equivalent?

 

[ray8838]

A small aside ...
... you can suggest someone to do something, but it is important to be clear about the meaning.

I suggest Bill to play the part of Hamlet.
If I say that, I am suggesting to someone else, not Bill, that Bill should play Hamlet.

I mention this because it arose in another recent thread about suggest ... which I can't find just at the moment.

I suggest Bill to play the part of Hamlet

= I suggest something

so, something=Bill to play the part of Hamlet

In this case , Bill is an object (noun) and "to play the part of Hamlet" is an infinitive acting as an adjective to modify Bill.

panjandrum, I agree with you that it is grammatical to say like that, but the Longman Dictionary says it is ungrammatical. This is the matter puzzling me.

 

[ray8838]

As a suasive verb, suggest can take noun+infinitive construction as an alternative to the that-clause (Quirk, p.1182). However, in

I suggest Bill to play the part of Hamlet.

the infinitive clause "to play the part of Hamlet" acts as predication adjunct (Quirk,p.1202), not noun phrase as you would regard, and you can't leave out the noun "Bill" by saying
* I suggest to play the part of hamlet.

Source: CGEL by Quirk et al.

I suggest something.

If, something="to play the part of hamlet"
"to play the part of hamlet" is an infinitve acting as a object (a noun phrase or a noun equivalent)


If, something= Bill to play the part of Hamlet

As I mentioned in the above thread, "Bill" is an object (noun) while "to play the part of Hamlet" is infinitive acting as an adjective to modify "Bill".

 

[vincix]

This I found on a Guardian article (http://www.theguardian.com/football/2015/nov/06/jose-mourinho-stadium-ban-chelsea-fa-reasons):

"The manager’s previous disciplinary record suggested to them that a monetary fine alone would not dissuade him from a repeat in future."

Do "to + pronoun" + a "that" clause normally work after "suggest" if a person suggests something to that person (to that pronoun)?

(for the record, I'm not mixing up the infinitive "to" with the preposition "to", so that's not what I'm trying to figure out.)

So can you say, "I suggested to him that he shouldn't do it"?

The reason why I'm asking is that the example from The Guardian seems to be different. It's a different use of "suggest", it would mean "appears", "seem", etc.

 

[se16teddy]

The object of suggest is the idea or proposal. Optionally, you can indicate the recipient of the idea with to.
- I suggested a walk in the park (to my wife).
- I suggested Tom as Hamlet (to the director).
- I suggested Tom to play Hamlet (to the director).
- I suggested to Fred that a fine was not enough.

 

[NevenaT]

Can you say: "I suggest Bill playing the part of Hamlet", that is using the participle phrase instead of the infinitive phrase?

 

[Loob]

Can you say: "I suggest Bill playing the part of Hamlet", that is using the participle phrase instead of the infinitive phrase?

No, sorry.

 

[NevenaT]

@Loob I hope I'm not boring, but I'm really curious about this.
If someone asks "Who do you suggest for the part of Hamlet?", can you answer: "I suggest Bill."?

If the answer is positive, then why couldn't you say "I suggest Bill playing the part of Hamlet"?

In that sentence the participle phrase is just used as a modifier of a noun phrase "Bill playing the part of Hamlet", it functions basically as an adjective, nothing more.
I have no idea, it just seems grammatical. I hope someone can explain.

I know for certain that you can use a gerund phrase (according to the Cambridge Dictionary), so I guess you can also say:
"I suggest Bill's playing the part of Hamlet."


Am I wrong?

Edited to add information.

 

[Loob]

I'm sorry, Nevena.
I suggest Bill playing the part of Hamlet.
I suggest Bill's playing the part of Hamlet.

The ING-form would be OK with another verb:
I remember Bill playing the part of Hamlet.
[less likely] I remember Bill's playing the part of Hamlet.

 

[NevenaT]

Well that's not really any useful advice since remember can be used with both infinitive and gerund and has different meanings.

Take a look at this link, you'll find that Cambridge allows the use of -ing with suggest.
I'd like someone else's opinion on this if it's possible.
Suggest - English Grammar Today - Cambridge Dictionary

 

[NevenaT]

I don't think that Bill playing/Bill's playing is correct, I don't about that, I'm asking why since you can definitely say 'I suggest going somewhere for a tea'.

 

[Thomas Tompion]

We can say I suggested Bill play Hamlet.

Play is not an infinitive in such a sentence, but a subjunctive, that is assumed after suggested.

The construction would be unusual, in my experience, after the present of suggest.

 

[Hermione Golightly]

We can use suggest with the -ing form of a verb when we mention an action but do not mention the person who will do it, because it is understood in the context:

She suggested travelling together for safety, since the area was so dangerous.

From the Cambridge link above.
This makes it clear that the participle/verbal noun can't be used when another person is the subject of the subsidiary clause, in this case, Bill. In other words when the subject is the same as the main clause, then -ing can be used.

'I suggest going home early' = 'I suggest we go home early'.

 

[NevenaT]

@Hermione Golightly Now I see why, thanks a lot!

 

[Ivan_I]

Is it also wrong to say:

1 I suggest your going there.

How about this one?

2 I suggest something for you to do.

 

[se16teddy]

Is it also wrong to say:

1 I suggest your going there.

How about this one?

2 I suggest something for you to do.

I can't imagine ever saying either of these sentences myself. Is this what you mean by "wrong"?

 

[PaulQ]

1 I suggest your going there. -> correct but very formal.

How about this one?

2 I suggest something for you to do. -> possible but only in restricted contexts: do not use this generally.

 

[NevenaT]

@PaulQ Would that make "I suggest Bill's going there" correct too, because Bill's is also a possessive?

 

[PaulQ]

Yes, it would.

 

[Thomas Tompion]

@PaulQ Would that make "I suggest Bill's going there" correct too, because Bill's is also a possessive?

There's a false premise here.

I don't think anything would make 'I suggest Bill's going there' right, as a way of saying that I'm suggesting that Bill goes there.

Loob told you this in post #13.

I couldn't find an example of anything like it in the British Corpus.

 

[Oddmania]

In my understanding of English grammar, gerunds act as nouns. So, "I suggest Bill's playing the part of Hamlet" does not mean that you suggest Bill for the part of Hamlet. It means that you suggest [a noun]: you suggest Bill's performance as Hamlet. What do you suggest it for? We don't know.

I suppose it might be correct in a different context. For example, "Whose performance do you suggest should be awarded at the festival?" — "I suggest Bill playing Hamlet in the new Broadway production should be awarded". Probably nowhere near as natural as "I suggest Bill's performance as Hamlet...", though.

 

[Thomas Tompion]

In my understanding of English grammar, gerunds act as nouns. So, "I suggest Bill's playing the part of Hamlet" does not mean that you suggest Bill for the part of Hamlet. It means that you suggest [a noun]: you suggest Bill's performance as Hamlet. What do you suggest it for? We don't know.

I suppose it might be correct in a different context. For example, "Whose performance do you suggest should be awarded at the festival?" — "I suggest Bill playing Hamlet in the new Broadway production should be awarded". Probably nowhere near as natural as "I suggest Bill's performance as Hamlet...", though.

Do we award performances at a festival?

If you mean Whose performance should be awarded the prize? Then you could say I suggest Bill's performance as Hamlet, but, of course, we are far now from the form of suggest we were discussing earlier.

 

[Oddmania]

Do we award performances at a festival?

I probably should have written "rewarded".

If you mean Whose performance should be awarded the prize? Then you could say I suggest Bill's performance as Hamlet, but, of course, we are far now from the form of suggest we were discussing earlier.

Yes, of course. I was really just trying to find a context where "I suggest Bill's playing...." might make some sense.

 

[NevenaT]

@Oddmania Yes, that's why I thought "Bill's playing" would also be correct, at least from a grammatical standpoint, because "playing" is a gerund, which is technically a noun.

@Thomas Tompion Isn't it "suggest that Bill go there" since it's subjunctive?

 

[Thomas Tompion]

I probably should have written "rewarded".

I'm afraid we don't reward prizes either. We award prizes for performances, and reward people with prizes.

@Thomas Tompion Isn't it "suggest that Bill go there" since it's subjunctive?

Note I was using the continuous present, and the indicative is idiomatic with the continuous present of suggest. To my ear the subjunctive would sound very pedantic in a case like this.

So it's not the subjunctive, I'm afraid.

(Remember I speak British English; an American might have different views about the subjunctive after suggest).

 

[Oddmania]

I'm afraid we don't reward prizes either.

That's not what I suggested, Thomas (I actually never mentioned the word prize). Do performances never get rewarded in English? "Whose performance do you think should be rewarded?".

 

[PaulQ]

I don't think anything would make 'I suggest Bill's going there' right, as a way of saying that I'm suggesting that Bill goes there.

A; "We need someone to go to France and explain the situation."
B: "I suggest Bill's going there - he speaks French." -> There is nothing grammatically wrong with this, although "I suggest that Bill should go there" would be far commoner.

Compare:
"His going to see the boss was a big mistake."

Yes, that's why I thought "Bill's playing" would also be correct,

It is.

 

[Thomas Tompion]

That's not what I suggested, Thomas (I actually never mentioned the word prize). Do performances never get rewarded in English? "Whose performance do you think should be rewarded?".

I'm sorry to have misunderstood you, Oddmania. Yes, we could say that, but I fear that "Whose performance do you suggest should be rewarded at the festival?" is not something I'd happily say.

I worried also that people have been using constructions where to suggest means to recommend rather than to propose (indicate). Most of us have been considering cases where the suggestion is close to an order.

 

[Oddmania]

I see. That's a fair point.

 

[Ivan_I]

I see two different points of view. I hope it's not a big deal to disagree as langauge is a complicated thing.

I see Loob and TT don't approve of this pattern "suggest someone's doing" while PaulQ finds it acceptable.

 

[yxd]

The "that" is implied, it's just elided

 

[Thomas Tompion]

The "that" is implied, it's just elided

In which sentence?

 

[doveric]

Verbs vary greatly in what kind of complements they take. 'Suggest' takes the ones listed, but not an infinitive clause. A clause isn't a noun phrase, it's a completely different structure.

suggest that somebody do something: the complement is a subjunctive that-clause.

suggest doing something: the complement is a gerund-participial clause. It's not a noun phrase: the gerund-participle is a verb, not a noun, as you can tell by the fact that it can take an object ('suggest wearing a jumper')

suggest (somebody) to do something: the (second) complement is a to-infinitival clause, which is an entirely different structure from any of the other three.

The fact that you can say, for example, 'I want it' and also 'I want you to go' doesn't mean that 'it' and 'you to go' have any structural similarity - it means rather that 'want' can take several different structures.

Hello, if this reply can still come to your attention after 11 years, can you kindly share how an English learner can know what you said? I looked up OALD but I do not think anyone can glean so much from there. Perhaps you could recommend several grammar authorities for me to explore? Thanks!

 

[Thomas Tompion]

Hello, if this reply can still come to your attention after 11 years, can you kindly share how an English learner can know what you said? I looked up OALD but I do not think anyone can glean so much from there. Perhaps you could recommend several grammar authorities for me to explore? Thanks!

Hello Doveric,

It would be easier for us to help you if you could raise a specific issue in a sentence as an example, either in this thread or in a new one.

 

[doveric]

Hello Doveric,

It would be easier for us to help you if you could raise a specific issue in a sentence as an example, either in this thread or in a new one.

Thanks for the advice, and actually I had already done so. I was just hoping there is an easier and understandable way to learn all these (it just seems endless to learn piece by piece by reading posts) and so did I ask. Reading grammar books isn't too different either as most books just describe how words are used without much reasoning for the readers to understand. I know we are talking about a humanity subject rather than science and so perhaps the problem is on me for unrealistically looking for a systematic way that just doesn't possibly exist. Thanks for responding though.

PS. I am sure you found out quite a number of grammatical errors or bad choices of words in my preceding paragraph, and they are exactly why I wish to re-build my English.

 

[Thomas Tompion]

PS. I am sure you found out quite a number of grammatical errors or bad choices of words in my preceding paragraph, and they are exactly why I wish to re-build my English.

I thought your English was fine.

We can't give comprehensive coverage of wide areas here, but one learns a foreign language a little at a time, and we can be helpful on the small points when they are precisely directed at us.

 

[SonNguyenn94]

@Loob I hope I'm not boring, but I'm really curious about this.
If someone asks "Who do you suggest for the part of Hamlet?", can you answer: "I suggest Bill."?

If the answer is positive, then why couldn't you say "I suggest Bill playing the part of Hamlet"?

In that sentence the participle phrase is just used as a modifier of a noun phrase "Bill playing the part of Hamlet", it functions basically as an adjective, nothing more.
I have no idea, it just seems grammatical. I hope someone can explain.

I know for certain that you can use a gerund phrase (according to the Cambridge Dictionary), so I guess you can also say:
"I suggest Bill's playing the part of Hamlet."


Am I wrong?

Edited to add information.

As a student of HCMC University of Social science and Humanity with the major of English Language.
As what I learned from college, you can say : "I suggest Bill (should) play the part of hamlet."
The structure is : To suggest someone (that) S + (should) + V + Object ...
Or to suggest someone (should) do something.
For this context it can be considered as an advice or an invitation.
For gerund, we should give a certain context as :
Bill asked me if I had any idea for his role.
I suggested playing the part of Hamlet.

For your example, "I suggest Bill playing the part of Hamlet", you may misunderstand it as Adjective Clause, I suggest Bill (who plays) playing the part of Hamlet that he (should) do something.

If you just say : "I suggest Bill playing the part of Hamlet", it can be a complete sentence or it can be a sentence that lacks of meaning/modifiers for the main verb suggest ( suggest someone do something) now it lacks do something part.

To make it clear, it depends on some certain contexts.
The 1st context :
Tom asked me if I had any idea for the one who will take the leading role in the next play.
I suggested Bill playing the part of Hamlet. Now, playing the part of Hamlet is adjective clause modifying for the noun Bill.

The 2nd context:
There are 2 Bills in my class, the first one is Bill who plays the part of Hercules and the second one is Bill who plays the part of Hamlet.
Then I suggest Bill playing the part of Hamlet that he should come early to prepare for his play carefully.
Finally, for "I suggest Bill's playing the part of Hamlet".
Put it into a certain contexts :
Teacher wants to know which performance of Bill is better, Bill's playing the part of Hamlet or Bill's playing the part of Hercules.
I suggest Bill's playing the part of Hamlet.

 

[Yichen]

I suggest (to the director) Bill playing the part of Hamlet is a good choice.

 

[yong321]

suggest to do is generally considered incorrect usage. But we do see that even in publications of linguistics. Ex. "We suggest to try and avoid using the tilde overlay" (Steven Moran, Michael Cysouw, The Unicode Cookbook for Linguists, p.58). Note the authors are linguists. (Not that it makes the usage correct. I personally would not say that.)

 

[yong321]

Thanks for the advice, and actually I had already done so. I was just hoping there is an easier and understandable way to learn all these (it just seems endless to learn piece by piece by reading posts) and so did I ask. Reading grammar books isn't too different either as most books just describe how words are used without much reasoning for the readers to understand. I know we are talking about a humanity subject rather than science and so perhaps the problem is on me for unrealistically looking for a systematic way that just doesn't possibly exist. Thanks for responding though.

PS. I am sure you found out quite a number of grammatical errors or bad choices of words in my preceding paragraph, and they are exactly why I wish to re-build my English.

Doveric,
You're asking the exact question I asked many years ago! In fact, I used to use Longman Dictionary for that same purpose: look up the verb usage. As much as we can theorize the rules, there's still too much that we simply can't find a good explanation for. Suppose we're building a robot or a translation machine. Simple rules can and should be programmed for reasons of computational efficiency. But what can and cannot follow a verb is better handled on a per-verb basis. For a human, after thousands of times of listening, reading, and saying that, you no longer need a rule about it.