Discussion in 'Cultural Discussions' started by invictaspirit, Oct 9, 2006.
Yes but...That doesn't square with Ewie's # 78 either (though that's in English)
Ja maar...dat komt ook niet overeen met Ewie's # 78 (alhoewel dat in het Engels is)
Ik ben ook geneigd Groot Brittannië als het groot eiland te zien
I'm also inclined to consider the big island as Great Britain.
And the UK as GB + N. IR
En het VK (Verenigd Koninkrijk) als GB (Groot Brittanië) + N. Ierland)
I denk dat dat klopt.
I think that's correct.
There's a little problem here:
Ewie said The United Kingdom, The UK, UK, Great Britain, GB, Britain. are all the same.
Stoggler says 't Verenigd Koninkrijk(UK) = Groot-Britannië (Great Britain)+ Noord Ierland
Seriously? So the Irish aren't British? That is not what I have heard in high school. (And my English teacher had lived in Ireland...)
I am pretty sure Ewie is wrong. I suppose Stoggler is right.
It depends on where in Ireland they are from and also their religion. Protestants from Northern Ireland consider themselves as British (as a rule), while Catholics from the north would not think of themselves as British, even if they have lived their entire life in that part of the island of Ireland that is a constituent part of the U.K.
People from the Republic of Ireland are not British.
I've no idea what you're talking about, Eno.
The United Kingdom, The UK, UK, Great Britain, GB, and Britain are all names (varying degrees of formality) for the same country. (Perhaps you thought I meant, "They're all the same thing," which they aren't.)
Stoggler is saying that [the island of] Great Britain and [the part of the island of Ireland called] Northern Ireland constitute the United Kingdom.
Which they do.
Ewie I quoted you a few times correctly, perhaps my interpretion was not what you meant.
Anyhow, Stoggler indicated a difference between UK and Great Britain. Those are not the names of the same country then.
Yes, that confirms my thought in that matter of "British".
As a matter of fact I didn't say this >
I said this >
Case closed. As far as I'm concerned.
Yes, I cited it at least three times.
Stoggler indicated a difference between UK and Great Britain. I'll keep to that.
"Förenade konungariket Storbritannien och Nordirland" is the official name in Swedish as specified by the Swedish government. The official short name is "Förenade kungariket". However, these names are primarily for EU legislative documents when translated to Swedish.
In general text, "Storbritannien" is recommended as the name of the country, although the region of Great Britain has the same name in Swedish and if necessary, you have to specify which meaning that's intended. The adjective for the country is "British".
However, if you thought for a moment that the average Swede knows this, forget it! You'll find references to the English government in speech, blogs, tabloids and even Swedish Wikipedia, while most reputable publications use the correct adjective for the British government. Swedes do know about the abbreviation UK, but can't understand why the country is called UK in the Eurovision Song Contest but GB in the Olympics. They will call the country England - I even had to reprimand my brother for having put an "England" tag on his Islay pics on Instagram and warned that it would be a gross insult to Scotland and its people!
Ah yes, now I understand. Brexit is not Brexit. It's UKexit.
They are indeed all countries. The UK is a 'country of countries', just like the USA is a '(sovereign) state of states'. Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland function similarly to US states (sort of, not quite). Wales was formerly considered a 'principality' which was subordinate to England (technically, Prince Charles is still the 'Prince of Wales') but this was later changed. Ireland and Scotland were broadly speaking considered separate countries subordinate to England de facto but not de jure, until Ireland's war of independence, when the Republic of Ireland left the UK. The province known as Ulster which had a very large Scots-Irish population elected to remain part of the UK, hence splitting the island of Ireland into two parts, one independent, one part of the UK.
All of the above refers to England as a political entity per se. Of course, the Crown and the parliament at Westminster are based in England, and until recently Westminster ruled over Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, so in real terms England had control over the other three. These days, Scotland has its own parliament, and Westminster only deals with 'reserved' matters such as defence and taxation. Northern Ireland and Wales also have their own parliaments, but with considerably less power than the Scottish one.
Most Scots think the same way.
Increasingly, Northern Irish people regard themselves as 'Northern Irish'. However, traditionally speaking, there was no such identity. People thought of themselves as either British or Irish, usually based on their religion: respectively Protestantism or Catholicism. All Northern Irish people are eligible to choose an Irish or a British passport and many of them choose the Irish one and consider themselves Irish. And others consider themselves British and identify more closely with Scotland than the Republic. A few even still speak the Scottish dialect, and I myself have mistaken 'Ulster Scots' people as Scottish Scots, albeit with a slightly unusual accent. But there are many different accents in Scotland and I still find myself encountering ones I have never heard before on occasion.
As is Oxford Dictionaries:
It’s Great in the sense of (relative) size, not moral worth, as is becoming increasingly clear.
Yep, Little Britain refers to Brittany (at least originally!).
In Turkish, we use United Kingdom, but not very often. It's all England to us ;p And the word "Great Britain" is known, but few know what exactly it's referring to. Most people probably think UK = GB.
Indeed: this thread reminds me of the bewildering Italian habit of asking English people if they’re from London. England’s a little more than a third of the size of Italy, and the UK’s only a little smaller than it, but we do have a few other towns and cities here and there!
I'm a little surprised by the comments. Most people I know in France clearly distinguish between England and the UK (infinitely more than they would between Holland and the Netherlands, for instance). And of course, I can't even imagine a reporter or an anchorman on television talking about an incident in 'England' if it actually happened anywhere else in the UK. I would just change the channel! (and the video segment would probably get picked up by a news satire talk show). Maybe because of our proximity to England, or the history we share?
However, I don't think the majority of people here could tell the difference between the UK and Great Britain. I couldn't if it weren't for my 10th-grade geography teacher, who drew this on the blackboard for us one day after correcting our papers.
Recently I was watching a video of a Star Trek convention on YouTube, and actress Marina Sirtis told somebody something along these lines: 'I can tell you're from England because only the English call themselves British'.
Often, Welsh, Scottish and Northern Irish people might refer to themselves as British if they are amongst foreigners who they think might not know the intricacies of the UK constituent parts - sometimes it's just easier to say that you're British than having to explain what you actually mean.
Oh, I see. So she was just trying to play funny.
Not necessarily - she does have a bit of a point. As you will have picked up from this whole thread, it's all a bit complicated! However, without having seen the exchange, it's difficult to draw any real conclusion. Remember that Marina Sirtis is British* (or should I say English...?) so she probably would have picked up an accent of whoever she was speaking to which may have influenced her response.
*or was originally, I don't know if she's an American citizen now
I'll admit that I didn't read this thread. We say England, Great Britain (I've never head "Britain" alone), the United Kingdom and, occasionally, the UK (which sounds more European to me). Hope that helps.
That is really not my experience. At all. England and Britain are synonymous in everyday speech for most French people, including the media. The only time the different parts are always distinguished is for sporting contests or an obvious political issue (e.g. Scottish nationalism).
@Pedro y La Torre That's shocking! I can't imagine an anchorman announce "In other news, a four-car pileup left rushhour commuters stranded for over three hours in England." if that actually happened in another country in the UK. What kind of news bulletin would that be?
They only people I've heard call Scotsmen or Welshmen 'English' (and I admit I've heard a lot) are the same people who call every Asian they see 'Chinese' even though they could be Japanese or Korean for all they know. However, we do often say "He's English" when we really mean "He's an English speaker", even when talking about American or Australian people. We do that with Belgian and French-Canadian people too: "Don't worry, he's French!", instead of French-speaking.
Really? I don't think a Frenchmen would ever say: "He's Dutch", instead of "He's Flemish." or "He speaks Dutch."
@Red Arrow :D That's actually very common. "Il est belge, mais il ne parle pas français. Il est néerlandais". That's pretty sloppy speech, but common enough.
I think we only realise that there is an English flag during the World Cup or the Euros!
The popularity of the English flag (cross of St George) is a recent phenomenon. Growing up, I never understood quite why the Union Jack was flown by fans at England matches quite so much when that was the flag of the UK. Back in the 70s and 80s, the England flag had been co-opted by far right groups and it had that negative association, so many didn't want to be seen flying that flag.
However, there was a real change in 1996 during the European Championships which were hosted by England. At that time, although the Conservatives were in power, Labour (under Blair) were in the ascendency and there was a lot of talk about Scottish devolution. Scotland and England were drawn in the same group of the tournament, and as a counter to the Scottish saltires, the England fans started flying the England flag.
There is still a whiff of far-right association with the flag, but it's nowhere near as bad as it used to be (the village I live in for example flies the England flag from all the shops in the High Street when we have our annual village fete - no political undertones attached to that!).
I'd guess because it was seen as the "English" flag and the UK and England were basically synonymous for most. It's worth remembering that distinguishing between England and Britain is a relatively recent thing, until the late 1940s, even Britons themselves didn't bother to distinguish Britain from England. Bertrand Russell growing up said (or rather wrote in his autobiography) that he was taught at school that "England" was an island that ends at John O'Groats.
Hardly anyone in France knows of St. George's Cross; the Union Jack is usually called "le drapeau anglais".
Thank you for your valuable insight
I was just thinking the same thing - it wasn't really until the rise of Scottish and Welsh nationalism in the 50s and 60s onwards that anyone but a few ever gave much consideration to the flags flown in Great Britain.
All the shops fly French and Italian flags in unison when we have visiting French and Italian markets in the village too. It must look quite strange for those driving through who don't quite know why we "celebrate" France and Italy quite so much in Storrington!
It does look good though, seeing the so many of the same flag down the street.
Irish history is a good indicator of this. During the first Irish "troubles" from 1916 to 1922 (which led to 26 counties leaving the UK), people at the time only spoke of "the English army", "the English government", "getting England out of Ireland" etc.
By the early 1970s, that had dropped away (albeit not in Irish America) and been replaced by "Brits Out".
I'm surprised that you're surprised to be honest. The grasp of the differences between the different parts of the UK and Ireland is shaky for most. People know of course that "Ireland'' exists but they often aren't sure whether it's independent or not, or which part has been in conflict over the past 30 years. They also know of Scotland and Wales but I doubt most could tell where England starts and ends if you gave them a blank map of Britain.
This isn't particularly surprising either - how many people during the Cold War could distinguish between Russia and the other republics of the USSR? Everyone just said "Russia" for short as it was easier.
We don't use the abbreviation UK very much because someone could confuse it with Ukraine.
I can't imagine anyone in France saying "he's English/il est anglais" referring to someone they know is American or Australian, or "he's French/il est français" when talking about Belgians or Quebecois.
It's certainly more common to refer to Brits as "English" regardless of where they are actually from, for instance when Gordon Brown was the UK's Prime Minister it was not uncommon for journalists to refer to him as "le premier ministre anglais".
There seems to be a crisis of identity among rugby players: before Six Nations matches the Welsh and Scottish teams sing their own national anthems while the English team sings "God save the Queen", which of course is the British anthem. At least that was the situation thr last time I looked, a few years ago.
But England doesn't have a national anthem, right?
True, but someone should notice the anomaly! And maybe write another song; the British anthem is unbeatable for its banality in both words and music!
If the words sound banal there's little you can do about it, I'm afraid. National anthems have a tendency to speak about loyalty and victory and such.
But I take exception to your second point. The music is gorgeous. It's so beautiful it's even been used and adapted by classical composers. Tchaikowsky for one, IIRC.
Anthem strange situation occurs on a Northern Ireland versus England World Cup qualifier match in 2006, where both teams use "God Save the Queen".
So if I'm not wrong they played the anthem only once
Separate names with a comma.