Exactly. It could go either way.It doesn't rain heavily in Death Valley.
Where the adverb comes before or after the verb is hard to explain. Is this your question?
Yes, I think so. Your "Adverbs of manner" link seems a good summary. It doesn't mention intransitive verbs, but it uses them in its examples.Is this because "rain" is (usually) intransitive?
What possible effect can local climate have on the position of an adverb of manner?It would depend on your climate around the world to determine what's appropriate in any given rain (or not) season.
I interpret that as meaning you would use it for emphasis, though it's difficult to understand you. I don't agree. It's not how we would emphasise the heavy rain, or the lack of heavy rain, or the surprise we feel at that lack. There are other ways to emphasise "heavily" in such a sentence - without resorting to unnatural sentences.It would have to due with precipitation in that local climate, and how it's perceived.
Adverbs of frequency can go before the main verb - I often see him here. I usually go in to work on Saturday.
Some adverbs of manner may precede the verb when there's an object: I greedily ate all the cakes.
Adverbs of manner
There may be exceptions to these guidelines, but the advice at the linked page (Edufind.com) seems good.
Also this:BBC World Service | Learning English | The Flatmates - Language Point 75
Dear Perpend,Hi, mio---Does that mean that that is the context?
Believe it. It depends on the type of adverb and whether or not the verb is transitive. There's no general objection whatever to such division. The objections are specific.I find it a bit hard to believe that some users have never heard this, would never dream of it, etc.
Do you have any evidence to support your claim that positioning adverbs of manner as in "It doesn't heavily rain." was standard English a hundred years ago?It's a word order that is less common now than it was a hundred years ago. There are far worse problems for a learner than sounding just barely old-fashioned.
No. You have made a claim that an English learner who says "It doesn't heavily rain." would sound "just barely old-fashioned." If you are going to say things like that in a language forum aimed at learners of English, you need to provide some evidence that what is now nonstandard was once standard.No, I don't have a dossier on that subject (though you seem to have misconstrued my point anyway) so let's just move on.
Hear hear! Especially this part:I'll plead my case with a few different parts.
On the history part, I'm afraid I still have no evidence that this expression was more common in the past than it is today. (Please note that I never said it was standard.) My judgment was based on its status as a freer and more poetical usage (i.e., when word placement would deviate for meter), and such usages were more common in an age of greater circulation of poetry.
Thank you for compiling that chart. One thing I can say is that it is incomplete, since according to Google no one has ever written "it heavily rained", which is quite impossible. Though it certainly does seem rare.
I'm not sure that the distinction between manner and degree/frequency has been brought out enough. "Often" is ok; that must allow always, never, sporadically. The WR definition of sparse gives "thinly scattered or distributed", which is practically frequency itself by one meaning. Greatly fits the bill for an adverb of degree more than manner. Which leaves heavily: my assertion goes unanswered that heavily does, or can perfectly reasonably, mean frequency rather than severity (to be specific, inches rain per unit time). A heavy rain is doubtless a hard one, but "it rained heavily this winter"? If this intends frequency of rain, or portion of time spent raining, by your own definition, you must consider a flip. After giving me such a hard time, dismissing my examples with "the only one I can accept" is a bit blithe of you.
Even so, taking your adverb of manner + intransitive verb rule at value. Unless I'm mistaken, that would forbid all of the following: I quickly ran home, She suddenly arrived, He courageously jumped, and They eventually died. Perhaps they are considered faults of style; I'm not sure about that -- I don't see how they can be ungrammatical -- but surely they are not unnatural.
Finally, back to our sentence at hand. At least two users disagreed with the point of view that this phrasing was necessarily unnatural. It just so happens that both of us are speakers of American English. Maybe we can put down the disagreement to geographic differences ("naturalness" being so subjective) or leave this aspect open as a topic to explore.
I have noticed that the quality of discussion in this thread has taken a turn for the abrupt and impolite, and I'm sorry if I did anything to contribute to that. Hey, a little perspective here: we're all trying to figure out what works and what doesn't; no one is trying to dupe poor foreigners. Please let's give each other the benefit of the doubt, and try to watch how we phrase things.
Expressing an opinion clearly as an opinion ("in my version of English", "for me") and in plain English is neither abrupt nor impolite. Expecting people to support statements with evidence is not impolite.Please let's give each other the benefit of the doubt, and try to watch how we phrase things.
It's clear from Mio's #18 that he or she gets it. Why so prescriptive veliarius? Is this issue so black and white for you?My view is that we should bear in mind that people come to EO to learn our language and that putting forward unconventional or idiosyncratic usage as a model is not helpful. It could even be construed as mischievous.
My apologies for not responding to this, mionguyen. I don't think BE speakers would accept "Sarah doesn't clearly speak her name" as standard English. Althougn there is no general objection to adverbs coming between the auxiliary verb and the main verb, there is a specific objection in BE to adverbs of manner falling in that position. "She doesn't often speak her name" is perfectly normal. "She doesn't often speak her name clearly" is also fine, but not "She doesn't clearly speak her name often."Sarah doesn't clearly speak her name/Sarah doesn't speak her name clearly. (these two are correct)
"To rain greatly", adverb of manner, could only mean that the rain was grand or magnificent; as a quantity or amount, it is clearly an adverb of degree, and is listed as such on several grammar websites. "Sparsely" can mean geographic sparseness, in which case I see adverb of manner, but if it means sparseness through time -- "it rained only sparsely last week; twice that I can remember" -- it must be an adverb of frequency, since frequency is what it indicates. "Heavily" is not the least, but the most ambiguous in this regard. "The 1977-1979 period was comparatively light for rain in the Amazon, but in 1980-1982, it rained heavily"-- are we saying that there was a lot of rain? If so, how can this escape the classification of degree? I understand that "heavily" will sometimes mean hard within a narrow window of time, i.e. a deluge, when the speaker wants to emphasize the weighty (almost literally "heavy") quality; but it's still doubtful if this forces adverb of manner over degree, and if it does, then "substantially", "significantly", "extremely", and "wonderfully" must all forgo their uses as adverbs of degree as well. On top of all that, as I have said a few times, I can imagine an adverb of frequency here, but I'm fine sticking to degree.I just don't understand how you can consider "greatly", "sparsely" and "heavily" as anything other than adverbs of manner when used with "to rain".
I'm hung up on the "they have to be"-- are you saying that they have to be, in your opinion, because the others I gave seem as you read them unnatural? Or is this purely based on plugging into a rule? I've checked three classics in grammar and usage on my shelf, just to confirm, and can't find mention of any such adverb rule. If anything they dismiss the importance of proper/improper adverb placement. (All follow British English incidentally.) I picked these examples because the idea that the sentences as I gave them are wrong to native English speakers is bizarre enough, to me, that I really think it should cause us to question this would-be rule a bit more closely. For what it's worth, Google search: "he courageously jumped" (231)/"he jumped courageously" (37); "i quickly ran home" (11,800)/"i ran home quickly" (3,430), etc.Looking at your new examples, "quickly", "suddenly" and "courageously" are all adverbs of manner, "eventually" is not. That means that, for me, they have to be:
I ran home quickly
She arrived suddenly
He jumped courageously
They eventually died or They died eventually.
That is not what I was referring to. If you'd like, I'd be happy to clarify, but the PM feature might be better for that.Expecting people to support statements with evidence is not impolite.
Altogether I'd say that this point of view is pretty unreasonable. Are you actually suggesting that some people here are intentionally trying to mislead others? If not, then (the way I read your statement) you are suggesting that even if a user is being honest and sharing his/her impressions, this is still considered "mischievous" in the case that it disagrees with the "correct" (your? a mod's? that of a website that you discovered five minutes ago?) view.Let's hope more members (especially speakers of AE) will provide some input here.
I would hesitate to "give the benefit of the doubt" in this case. There's no doubt in my mind, and no evidence has been given to suggest that "It heavily rained" is grammatically correct. It may "sound OK" to some, but that's a very subjective view.
I think there may be some confusion in some members' minds about being "creative" and playing with one's own language - there's nothing wrong with that. My view is that we should bear in mind that people come to EO to learn our language and that putting forward unconventional or idiosyncratic usage as a model is not helpful. It could even be construed as mischievous.
That's a good case, but even so, a caution.PS A Google search for "it doesn't heavily rain" finds 5 results. This thread, and two other texts, each repeated.
I wroteI'm hung up on the "they have to be"
I thought that was pretty obviously an opinion. The other BE contributors to this thread have taken the same position as I have on "It doesn't heavily rain", "It heavily rained" and similar sentences. We lack any AE support other than perpend's musings for your position, which is a pity. I have nothing to add.That means that, for me, they have to be
This was the point I was hoping to clarify, since your phrasing ofI'm hung up on the "they have to be"-- are you saying that they have to be, in your opinion, because the others I gave seem as you read them unnatural? Or is this purely based on plugging into a rule?
suggests that it's the presumed status of these as adverbs of manner that is requiring your placement. I'm curious how you reconcile this rule with idiomatic sentences such as these, but even more importantly, we were askedLooking at your new examples, "quickly", "suddenly" and "courageously" are all adverbs of manner, "eventually" is not. That means that, for me, they have to be:
Alas, it is is a pity that we don't have more voices in here, from either side, but if I stopped in and found a monstrosity like this, I'm not sure I'd get involved either.Does it sound natural to native speakers?
At that point, the severity and the proposed solution of the problem are evident, and it's up to him/her to do what he/she wants."unusual and less common, though grammatical; perhaps poetical. For an American to say this in speech, I'd think it was slightly odd but not very much so. For that reason, I would have to get pretty far down the list of grievances before I was ready to call this unnatural."