Dora ist zur Party gegangen, ohne es ihren Eltern zu sagen (1)/ ohne es Ihren Eltern gesagt zu haben (2).

marcogaiotto

Senior Member
Italian
Dora ist zur Party gegangen, ohne es ihren Eltern zu sagen (1)/ ohne es Ihren Eltern gesagt zu haben (2).

Here I am again! What do I have to choose? I'd personally choose 2, but I think 1 is acceptable as well. Thanks a lot in advance!
 
  • Kajjo

    Senior Member
    :tick: (1) Dora ist zur Party gegangen, ohne es ihren Eltern zu sagen.
    :tick: (2) Dora ist zur Party gegangen, ohne es Ihren Eltern gesagt zu haben.


    Both versions are correct.

    Version (1) is more idiomatic. We typically use present tense in the infinitive clause.
     

    Gernot Back

    Senior Member
    German - Germany
    :tick: (1) Dora ist zur Party gegangen, ohne es ihren Eltern zu sagen.
    :tick: (2) Dora ist zur Party gegangen, ohne es Ihren Eltern gesagt zu haben.


    Both versions are correct.

    Version (1) is more idiomatic. We typically use present tense in the infinitive clause.
    Strictly speaking, I would use version 2 if I mean that Dora should have told her parents and asked for permission before going to the party. In version 1 she didn't tell her parents, neither before nor after going to the party.
     

    JClaudeK

    Senior Member
    Français France, Deutsch (SW-Dtl.)
    However, I suppose version (1) is what was intended.
    I' not sure.
    Strictly speaking, I would use version 2 if I mean that Dora should have told her parents and asked for permission before going to the party.
    :thumbsup:

    If it's the type of same type of exercice as
    I have to combine these two sentences with "ohne...zu".

    Wir haben den Artikel gelesen.
    Wir haben nichts verstanden.
    we need the given sentences.
     

    marcogaiotto

    Senior Member
    Italian
    I' not sure.

    :thumbsup:

    If it's the type of same type of exercice as

    we need the given sentences.
    Dora ist zur Party gegangen.
    Dora hat es ihren Eltern nicht gesagt.

    These are the two sentences I have to combine using "ohne zu".
    What would you suggest now? Thanks a lot in advance!
     

    Gernot Back

    Senior Member
    German - Germany
    These sentences contain no "before", "after", or difference of tense. For this reason, "... gesagt zu haben" seems wrong.
    The meaning of "before" (anteriority) comes about by "gesagt zu haben" (Infinitiv Perfekt). You don't need any additional "before" to understand that the possible act of talking about it is anterior/takes place before her going to the party.
     

    διαφορετικός

    Senior Member
    Swiss German - Switzerland
    The meaning of "before" (anteriority) comes about by "gesagt zu haben" (Infinitiv Perfekt). You don't need any additional "before" to understand that the possible act of talking about it is anterior/takes place before her going to the party.
    Yes, this resembles what I meant by "difference of tense". It would match the following description, which contains a difference of tense:

    Dora ist zur Party gegangen.
    Dora hatte es ihren Eltern nicht gesagt.
     

    Kajjo

    Senior Member
    Dora ist zur Party gegangen.
    Dora hat es ihren Eltern nicht gesagt.
    These two sentences are very neutral with regards to their respective time line.

    "Dora hat es ihren Eltern nicht gesagt." can be simply understood that she never told her parents, neither before nor after the party.

    The simple and correct way to build one sentence from it is as given in #2:

    (1) Dora ist zur Party gegangen, ohne es ihren Eltern zu sagen.

    This is equally neutral. She didn't tell her parents before the party and probably neither afterwards.

    (2) Dora ist zur Party gegangen, ohne es Ihren Eltern gesagt zu haben.
    This sentence presumes in addition that we focus on the fact that Dora didn't tell her parents before. This might be semantically reasonable, but is not necessarily implied.

    As often with these exercise sentence, they are formally correct, but not perfectly idiomatic. German actually lives on all the small words we like to add to sentences, from tiny adverbs to flavour particles. And these additions usually make very clear, what we talk about.

    Dora ist einfach zur Party gegangen, ohne es Ihren Eltern vorher zu sagen.

    This would be idiomatic and the present infinitive is totally fine.

    Dora ist einfach zur Party gegangen, ohne es Ihren Eltern vorher gesagt zu haben.

    This is grammatically perfect, but sounds a bit elevated and stiff. In written legalese protocols this would be recommended, but not in spoken language.
     

    elroy

    Moderator: EHL, Arabic, Hebrew, German(-Spanish)
    US English, Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    There is no implication in the original that the speaker believes she should have told her parents. They might be praising her for her choice because they think it was the right one. We also don’t know whether this is about not telling them before or not telling them after, but since she didn’t tell them either way, each option implicates the other and we don’t need to worry about it.

    In English, “She went without telling her parents” would mean “before” to me, but it sounds like that’s not the case in German.

    In other words, in English, “She went without telling them, but she told them a week later” makes perfect sense. Would “Sie ist hingegangen, ohne es ihnen zu sagen, aber eine Woche später hat sie es ihnen gesagt“ make sense in German?
     
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