Dual Citizenship

Pedro y La Torre

Senior Member
English (Ireland)
It has to be considered, Vanda, that we are a nation made up primarily of immigrants. Once you become a citizen of the U.S. your original nationality (in the sense of where you were born) is only relevant to heritage. If I were to become a citizen of Brazil would you consider me Brazilian or still of U.S. nationality?

And I'd like to point that "Jew" is not a nationality.
Not to mention that the ancestral countries still "claim" them. I can't count how many Irish-American inventors, politicians etc. that Irish people would be proud to claim as "Irish" even though they were, for all intents and purposes, 100 per cent American. I wonder whether the Irish are not more devoted to JFK's memory than Americans are.
 
  • Vanda

    Moderesa de Beagá
    Português/ Brasil
    Officially, yes -- only in the sense that the citizenship oath includes a renunciation of other citizenships. In real life, no. A second citizenship isn't generally recognized by the U.S. (there are a few exceptions) but it doesn't affect the daily lives of those who hold passports from another country as well as the U.S. See above.
    So, this is my point: a political play from USA and the other countries that do the same: mainly if the person is someone proeminent in any area, or like I know some families here, to send the boys to war as target for bombs. Please don't take me badly here, what I mean when they force a person to give up their original citizenship they have all political interests, I don't see the same with double citizenship here, if I am making myself understood. I don't want to sound offensive here, just pointing what politics are like.
     
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    Angelo di fuoco

    Senior Member
    Russian & German (GER) bilingual
    I don't think it is about the USA. I have a suspicion all countries "appropriate" their accomplished dual citizens to themselves. Sergey Brin (the co-founder of Google) is considered Russian in Russia, although his family emigrated to the US when he was little. Same with Nabokov, although he left Russia in his early 20s and write all his works in emigration.
    How many works did Nabokov write in Russian and how many in English?
     

    merquiades

    Senior Member
    English (USA Northeast)
    So, this is my point: a political play from USA and the other countries that do the same: mainly if the person is someone proeminent in any area, or like I know some families here, to send the boys to war as target for bombs. Please don't take me badly here, what I mean when they force a person to give up their original citizenship they have all political interests, I don't see the same with double citizenship, if I am making myself understood. I don't want to sound offensive here, just pointing what politics are like.
    Ola Vanda. All I can do is repeat that I have double citizenship, I don't hide it, and it is seen as normal. The embassy knows it, when I fly I declare it, etc. No one has ever pressured me to take an oath (on either side). When I become famous I'm not sure who will fight to claim me :) In art museums on both sides of the Atlantic I see American (born Russia), French (worked in Spain), all sorts of combinations. For Picasso it always says French (born in Spain). However, on rue Alexander Graham Bell, not far from where I live, it reads American scientist, but no mention of UK.
     

    merquiades

    Senior Member
    English (USA Northeast)
    OH, I see. I understood that if you oath (tá certo?) American citizenship you have to give up - officially - all the other(s) one(s).
    I never took an oath but I was not nationalized. I know too many American bi-nationals (personally not with a Brazilian combination though) for it not to be an accepted practice.

    However, I know for a fact that China strips citizens of their Chinese nationality when they obtain another nationality.
     

    JamesM

    Senior Member
    So, this is my point: a political play from USA and the other countries that do the same: mainly if the person is someone proeminent in any area, or like I know some families here, to send the boys to war as target for bombs. Please don't take me badly here, what I mean when they force a person to give up their original citizenship they have all political interests, I don't see the same with double citizenship here, if I am making myself understood. I don't want to sound offensive here, just pointing what politics are like.
    You DO realize that a person can live in the U.S. for a lifetime and never become a citizen, right? It is a choice to become a citizen that requires classes, a test and an oath. No one is forced to do so. You can be what is called "a resident alien" for life. You can own property, run a company and do all your normal daily business. You can't hold certain public offices. So if you are concerned about politics you can choose simply to not engage in them by not becoming a citizen. I get the impression from your comments that people are forced to become citizens here. Not at all.
     
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    JamesM

    Senior Member
    Here's an interesting comment from one site:

    http://www.legallanguage.com/legal-articles/becoming-a-us-citizen/
    While it’s true that the US has new citizens renounce their previous citizenships in taking the Oath of Allegiance during naturalization ceremonies, you can ask to omit that part of the oath if you want to retain your previous citizenship as well. While dual citizenship used to be banned in the United States, the Supreme Court struck down those laws — so if it’s the only thing keeping you from becoming a US citizen, it may be time to reconsider!
     

    caelum

    Senior Member
    Canadian English
    OH, I see. I understood that if you oath (tá certo?) American citizenship you have to give up - officially - all the other(s) one(s).
    A friend from my city in Canada moved to the US and had to renounce her Canadian citizenship to get an American one, but afterward she went and applied for and was granted her Canadian nationality again, because we allow dual citizenship up here.
     

    Hector9

    Senior Member
    A friend from my city in Canada moved to the US and had to renounce her Canadian citizenship to get an American one, but afterward she went and applied for and was granted her Canadian nationality again, because we allow dual citizenship up here.
    That's interesting, how long did it take to your friend to re apply to her canadian citizenship? was it fast and easy?
     

    caelum

    Senior Member
    Canadian English
    I'm not exactly sure. I don't think it was a difficult process. Much like the UK, if you were born in Canada, you're always a Canadian, so I think they just grant it.
     

    Packard

    Senior Member
    USA, English
    Well, this is what I've found and this is what I understand to be true.


    A description of the US naturalization oath is given in Section 337(a) of the INA [8 USC § 1448(a)]. Of particular relevance to the dual citizenship issue is that, as part of the oath, a new citizen must pledge "to renounce and abjure absolutely and entirely all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which the applicant was before a subject or citizen."
    In practice, it is unclear what if any true legal significance this statement has any more. The US does not require a new citizen to take any formal steps to renounce his old citizenship before officials of the "old country"; and when the other country continues to claim a naturalized US citizen as one of its own, current US policy recognizes that such a person may have to use a passport from the other country in order to visit there, and such an action does not put the person's US citizenship in jeopardy.
    My niece was born in Brazil of two U.S. citizens. When she turned 18 she had to declare her citizenship. I don't know if it was a USA requirement or a Brazilian requirement. She declared as a U.S. citizen. That was 14 years ago. Maybe the laws have changed since then.
     

    Vanda

    Moderesa de Beagá
    Português/ Brasil
    My niece was born in Brazil of two U.S. citizens. When she turned 18 she had to declare her citizenship. I don't know if it was a USA requirement or a Brazilian requirement. She declared as a U.S. citizen. That was 14 years ago. Maybe the laws have changed since then.
    I can bet it is USA requirements. I think it is so ''antipático'' having to renounce one citizenship to become American! Brazilians are allowed to have 2 citizenships. Nowadays I am Italian too, would NEVER renounce my Brazilian citizenship for any other in the world!
     

    Packard

    Senior Member
    USA, English
    I can bet it is USA requirements. I think it is so ''antipático'' having to renounce one citizenship to become American! Brazilians are allowed to have 2 citizenships. Nowadays I am Italian too, would NEVER renounce my Brazilian citizenship for any other in the world!
    She might have agreed with you if she had not left Brazil when she was four months old.
     

    Pedro y La Torre

    Senior Member
    English (Ireland)
    My niece was born in Brazil of two U.S. citizens. When she turned 18 she had to declare her citizenship. I don't know if it was a USA requirement or a Brazilian requirement. She declared as a U.S. citizen. That was 14 years ago. Maybe the laws have changed since then.
    Lots of Irish citizens are also American citizens; I've never heard of it causing an issue.
    Rumour has it that there are more Irish passport holders in the USA than in Ireland.
     

    Packard

    Senior Member
    USA, English
    Lots of Irish citizens are also American citizens; I've never heard of it causing an issue.
    Rumour has it that there are more Irish passport holders in the USA than in Ireland.
    There are issues actually. When you are in a foreign country and you get in trouble you can apply to your consulate for assistance. With a dual citizenship you can not apply for assistance at either of the countries where you hold citizenship. Additionally you cannot hold any state department positions, even though the language fluency might make you well-equipped for the jobs.

    As a state department employee you would need to be able to hide behind diplomatic immunity. As a citizen in the host country you would not have that immunity and might be a liability to the State Department.

    Here is a list of countries that Brazil recognizes for dual citizenship: http://thebrazilbusiness.com/article/dual-citizenship-in-brazil

    There is probably a list for Ireland too.
     

    Pedro y La Torre

    Senior Member
    English (Ireland)
    There are issues actually. When you are in a foreign country and you get in trouble you can apply to your consulate for assistance. With a dual citizenship you can not apply for assistance at either of the countries where you hold citizenship.
    But that wouldn't make sense, unless I've picked you up wrong. It would reduce dual passport holders to, essentially, stateless persons while in foreign countries. If I were a dual American-Irish citizen, I would, whilst in America, be afforded all the statutory rights due to an U.S. passport holder. And vice versa in Ireland. In a third country, I could apply for representation at either embassy/consulate (EU citizens can apply for representation by any other EU state while abroad).

    The State department one is something I hadn't thought of. I suppose you'd be afforded the opportunity to renounce any foreign citizenships before they rejected you entirely though.
     

    Vanda

    Moderesa de Beagá
    Português/ Brasil
    She might have agreed with you if she had not left Brazil when she was four months old.
    Hope I haven't offended the family. This was not the intention. And hers is just another story. :)
    By the way, I'll try to find the law about foreigners born here. There is something about it somewhere...

    Editing: here is the law:
    Art. 1º São brasileiros: I - os nascidos no Brasil, ainda que de pais estrangeiros, desde que não residam estes a serviço de seu país;

    DA OPÇÃO -Art. 2º Quando um dos pais for estrangeiro, residente no Brasil a serviço de seu governo, e o outro for brasileiro, o filho, aqui nascido, poderá optar pela nacionalidade brasileira, na forma do art. 129, nº II, da Constituição Federal.

    So, if foreigners have children born here they''ll be BR if their parents are not working for their government. If one of the parents is foreign and the other is BR, the children can opt for BR citizenship.
     
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    Packard

    Senior Member
    USA, English
    But that wouldn't make sense, unless I've picked you up wrong. It would reduce dual passport holders to, essentially, stateless persons while in foreign countries. If I were a dual American-Irish citizen, I would, whilst in America, be afforded all the statutory rights due to an U.S. passport holder. And vice versa in Ireland. In a third country, I could apply for representation at either embassy/consulate (EU citizens can apply for representation by any other EU state while abroad).

    The State department one is something I hadn't thought of. I suppose you'd be afforded the opportunity to renounce any foreign citizenships before they rejected you entirely though.
    I was reading about such a case. The applicant held dual citizenship and was applying to the US State Department. They rejected his application because he could not be given diplomatic immunity (and protect state secrets, I guess). He offered to renounce his citizenship but the State Department said they could only use the information that was available at the time the application was made. No job. I will see if I can find that reference.

    Addendum: I found it!

    https://careers.state.gov/engage/forums/consular-adjudicators/dual-citizenship-usa-brazil
     

    Packard

    Senior Member
    USA, English
    Hope I haven't offended the family. This was not the intention. And hers is just another story. :)
    By the way, I'll try to find the law about foreigners born here. There is something about it somewhere...
    No offense taken. In fact, when she visited there with her parents I suggested she run to the Brazilian consulate and seek asylum. She was not yet 18 and was a ward of her parents, but as a citizen of Brazil she could assert herself.

    She said, "Why would I want to do that, Uncle Packard?"

    "Why?" I said. "So you can negotiate for better treatment (she was driving a Subaru--I suggested a BMW).:D
     

    merquiades

    Senior Member
    English (USA Northeast)
    I have two nationalities and two passports, one American, one French. Never had any problem with that. Also know 5 other people in the same situation. I know there is no problem. I even tell them when I fly and go through customs. Sometimes they tell me to use one or the other so it goes quicker bureaucratically. I also vote in both countries.
     

    ESustad

    Senior Member
    English - (Minnesota)
    I have two nationalities and two passports, one American, one French. Never had any problem with that. Also know 5 other people in the same situation. I know there is no problem. I even tell them when I fly and go through customs. Sometimes they tell me to use one or the other so it goes quicker bureaucratically. I also vote in both countries.
    Legally, a US citizen is obligated to enter the US with a US passport, regardless of other nationalities.
     

    Sepia

    Senior Member
    High German/Danish
    So if they have an Italian citizen, Luigi X, leaving the USA 5 times showing his Italian passport and reentering the USA 5 times showing his US Passport, they have a Luigi X who must have entered the USA 5 times, but there is no record of him doing so. Is that just about how the system works? Shouldn't that cause some sort of a problem?
     

    merquiades

    Senior Member
    English (USA Northeast)
    So if they have an Italian citizen, Luigi X, leaving the USA 5 times showing his Italian passport and reentering the USA 5 times showing his US Passport, they have a Luigi X who must have entered the USA 5 times, but there is no record of him doing so. Is that just about how the system works? Shouldn't that cause some sort of a problem?
    This is a very good question, but I'm afraid I have no answer. Maybe countries are only interested in knowing who is entering, not leaving? All I can say is that it works that way. Actually the airlines encourage/ enforce this system. On the times that I have inadvertently decided to show another passport, they ask for visa/return tickets etc. and when I explain the situation they always tell me (us - as it is the same with my friends) to use the passport always in the direction you are travelling to avoid being hassled. So overtime that has become routine.
     

    Pedro y La Torre

    Senior Member
    English (Ireland)
    This is a very good question, but I'm afraid I have no answer. Maybe countries are only interested in knowing who is entering, not leaving? All I can say is that it works that way. Actually the airlines encourage/ enforce this system. On the times that I have inadvertently decided to show another passport, they ask for visa/return tickets etc. and when I explain the situation they always tell me (us - as it is the same with my friends) to use the passport always in the direction you are travelling to avoid being hassled. So overtime that has become routine.
    Does the U.S. give you an exit stamp? I don't believe it does.
     

    merquiades

    Senior Member
    English (USA Northeast)
    It only exists online now. It used to be the white form that CBP would staple into your passport upon arrival.
    I remember the blue cards you had to fill out on the plane prior to landing, but they just took them from me, never stapled them into my passport. I go in on a US passport though. So I avoid all that paperwork.
     

    Nipnip

    Senior Member
    Español
    It only exists online now. It used to be the white form that CBP would staple into your passport upon arrival.
    How was it replaced?

    They did use to request the little white added stamp at exit, additionally, you were requested to scan your passport on machines installed for that purpose after customs and security, at least when traveling overseas.

    It used to be the Airlines responsibility to collect the white stamps, but I noticed that they just but them in an improvised cardboard box. Anyways, this was when they couldn't spy as much and tougher on-site security was needed.
     

    london calling

    Senior Member
    UK English
    As far as I know, it's the same in the UK. I have UK/Irish dual nationality and was told that I couldn't avail of the British embassy in the Republic of Ireland, but apart from that there seems to be no problem with having dual or multiple citizenship for a UK citizen. (Someone correct me if I'm wrong).
    I have dual UK/Italian citizenship and cannot avail of the British Embassy here in Italy if I am in any sort of 'trouble'.

    Just as an aside. When my son was born here (of an Italian father and therefore automatically an Italian national) I went to the Consulate and applied for British citizenship for him: it was granted immediately.
     

    Mirlo

    Senior Member
    Castellano, Panamá/ English-USA
    I know that the US does allow dual citizenship (otherwise our INS office would be inundated with complaints). In my case, I am both a German and a US citizen, but I must apply to retain my German citizenship by my 23rd year. If I am drafted by Germany, I have the choice to do a civil service, which is not equivalent to serving in another military...of this I am quite sure.
    I agree , my oldest daughter was born in an Army base in Panama and she have dual citizenship. No one have ever told her that she have to renounce to the Panamanian one. :)
     

    aloofsocialite

    Senior Member
    English - USA (California)
    I was born in the US and thus have a US passport. I also hold a Japanese passport because that's where my father was born. In my case, it wasn't an easy process to have done, since I had to obtain a copy of my Japanese birth certificate from a government office in Japan, fill out all the paperwork in Japanese (there are no other language options) and register with the Japanese government as a citizen living overseas. I've never had any problem using my Japanese passport or had problems from the US government.
     

    Sepia

    Senior Member
    High German/Danish
    A new Danish law is coming up, allowing persons to regain Danish citizenship and allowing them to have dual citizenship.
     

    duvija

    Senior Member
    Spanish - Uruguay
    My son has 3. He was born in Argentina, his parents (us) are Uruguayans so he's also Uruguayan, and became an American citizen. Didn't have to give up any of those.
     

    Rodal

    Senior Member
    Castellano (Chile)
    It doesn't???

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ImageualCitizenMap.PNG

    Moderator Note: This is a spin-off from the thread Native of Two Languages.
    If The US does not allow dual citizenship but other countries do, does that mean that an american citizen not born in the United States that was naturalized in the States and renounced his citizenship from let's say Brazil (for example), he can still go back to his mother country and claim to be a citizen of that country while not in the US? or this is a rule that only applies while living in the US?
     

    Packard

    Senior Member
    USA, English
    If The US does not allow dual citizenship but other countries do, does that mean that an american citizen not born in the United States that was naturalized in the States and renounced his citizenship from let's say Brazil (for example), he can still go back to his mother country and claim to be a citizen of that country while not in the US? or this is a rule that only applies while living in the US?

    The USA does not permit dual citizenship. Multiple citizenship - Wikipedia

    My niece, born in Brazil, but living all but the first few months in the USA of American parents had to declare her citizenship when she turned 18.

    I would assume that if she were born in Brazil it would be easier for her to get a new Brazilian citizenship, but I would also assume that she would have to apply like everyone else.
     

    ain'ttranslationfun?

    Senior Member
    US English
    The USA does not permit dual citizenship. Multiple citizenship - Wikipedia

    My niece, born in Brazil, but living all but the first few months in the USA of American parents had to declare her citizenship when she turned 18.

    I would assume that if she were born in Brazil it would be easier for her to get a new Brazilian citizenship, but I would also assume that she would have to apply like everyone else.
    Hi, Pack, In the Wikipedia article you cited, it says "...the United States allow dual citizenship".

    I know someone with three citizenships/nationalities: Born in the US to a French mother and an Italian father (actually from San Remo). Now, of course, she has US & EU passports.
     

    Packard

    Senior Member
    USA, English
    Hi, Pack, In the Wikipedia article you cited, it says "...the United States allow dual citizenship".

    I know someone with three citizenships/nationalities: Born in the US to a French mother and an Italian father (actually from San Remo). Now, of course, she has US & EU passports.
    I missed that. But of course the reason the US allows dual citizenship is that we tax worldwide. So someone with a dual citizenship living, say, in Paris would be tax-liable in the USA. Even if they never visit the USA at all.

    And if you want to quit your US citizenship you have to pay up about $2,400.00.
     
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