Dutch: Uitspraak

olives

Senior Member
French (France)
Hoi,

Ik bent Fransman en ik spreek geen Nederlander. Doch, een wenig.
Maar, ik weet niet the pronounciation...

How to pronounce...
1 - the "e" in "welkom"?
"u" in "Dank u"?

2 - Prettig met u kennis te maken.
the "i" in "Prettig" and the "i" in "kennis"?

3 - Ik heb hulp nodig
the "i" in "nodig" ?

And finally...
normally, we pronounce "u" as a french "u" or a german "ü", right?
even in "Dank u" ? Cause that's not what i hear in a record.

and how do we pronounce sometimes "i"? as "e" in "je"? (french)? as "a friend" (english "a" => a dog, a friend, a book...) ?


sometimes i'm not sure about what i'm hearing. the vowels "u" and "i" :s

and do dutch people tend not to pronounce "-en" in endings but they barely pronounce "-'n"? "Prettig met u kennis te maken. " pronounce



DANK U EN DAR !
 
  • elroy

    Moderator: EHL, Arabic, Hebrew, German(-Spanish)
    US English, Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    Hoi,

    Ik bent Fransman en ik spreek geen Nederlandser. Doch, Nou, een weinig wel. (not sure of this construction, but I don't think you can use "doch" the way you did.)
    Maar, ik weet ken niet the pronounciation de uitspraak niet...

    How to pronounce...
    1 - the "e" in "welkom"? Like the "e" in the English word "bed."
    "u" in "Dank u"? Like the French "u."

    2 - Prettig met u kennis te maken.
    the "i" in "Prettig" and the "i" in "kennis"? It's like a schwa. A very quick, "i" sound. Kind of like the "u" in the English word "busy."

    3 - Ik heb hulp nodig
    the "i" in "nodig" ? Same as above.

    And finally...
    normally, we pronounce "u" as a french "u" or a german "ü", right?
    even in "Dank u" ? Cause that's not what i hear in a record. Yes, I don't think "dank u" is an exception.

    and how do we pronounce sometimes "i"? as "e" in "je"? (french)? as "a friend" (english "a" => a dog, a friend, a book...) ? See above.


    sometimes i'm not sure about what i'm hearing. the vowels "u" and "i" :s​

    and do dutch people tend not to pronounce "-en" in endings but they barely pronounce "-'n"? "Prettig met u kennis te maken. " pronounce
    Yes. The "n" of an "en" ending is usually not pronouced. "Maken" is pronounced "Make."




    DANK U EN DAR !
     

    olives

    Senior Member
    French (France)
    THANKS!!!

    would you mind to speak more about "en" cause i have muchhhhhhh trouble to get it as well as in german.

    In this connextion, you probably learn or know how to speak german a bit.
    Please don't move my post away. In german, "vorstellen"... they just say "vorstell" for example, no?

    So, what am I supposed to learn? how to learn it rightly?
    I'm really lost, please tell me more about dutch "-en" and german "-en".

    THANKS A LOT.
     

    elroy

    Moderator: EHL, Arabic, Hebrew, German(-Spanish)
    US English, Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    In german, "vorstellen"... they just say "vorstell" for example, no?
    No. Except in some dialects, the "en" is pronounced in German.
    I'm really lost, please tell me more about dutch "-en" and german "-en".
    Most infinitives in both German and Dutch end in "en." In German the "n" is pronounced; in Dutch it is not.

    The same applies to any verb forms that have the same endings.

    German: wir haben (pronounced)
    Dutch: wij hebben (not pronounced)

    Clearer?
     

    olives

    Senior Member
    French (France)
    no... I'm not a expert sure... But in german... There's something strange about "en" also...

    I asked the question on a German forum...


    THANKS ABOUT THE "-N"... not so complicated finally.
     

    elroy

    Moderator: EHL, Arabic, Hebrew, German(-Spanish)
    US English, Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    The only thing I can think of that might be "strange" about it is that in colloquial speak it's sometimes pronounced really fast so that the "e" is almost dropped.

    haben - hab'n
    kaufen - kauf'n

    The "n" is always pronounced, though (except in some dialects, as I've already stated).
     

    gaer

    Senior Member
    US-English
    The only thing I can think of that might be "strange" about it is that in colloquial speak it's sometimes pronounced really fast so that the "e" is almost dropped.

    haben - hab'n
    kaufen - kauf'n

    The "n" is always pronounced, though (except in some dialects, as I've already stated).
    I understand Olives point, perhaps.

    The problem, I think, is not the "n" but the "e".

    Sometimes when a word such as "verstehen" is said quickly it sounds almost like "verstehn" (versteh'n). This is much more striking that "hab'n".

    However, I have never heard "vorstellen" shortened to "vorstelln". It may happen in some dialects, but this is totally beyond my knowledge.

    I think the important thing is that all languages sound very differently when spoken very quickly, and what we think happens and what actually happens may not always be the same. :)

    Gaer
     

    optimistique

    Senior Member
    Doch, een wenig.

    'Doch' is not really incorrect, I believe, it's very archaic, but we understand. 'een weinig' is a Germanism, not Dutch. We say 'een beetje' (a little bit).
    The most normal Dutch phrasing would be: Slechts een beetje (Only a little bit).

    And finally...
    normally, we pronounce "u" as a french "u" or a german "ü", right?
    even in "Dank u" ? Cause that's not what i hear in a record.


    Yes, the long Dutch 'u' ('uu') is pronounced like French 'u'. So that's the way you should pronounce 'Dank u'.
    It may sound different to you, because it's so frequently used plus the fact that the 'u' has no stress. All Dutch vowels that have no stress are pronounced in the direction of a schwa (French 'e' in 'le'). On top of that, because of assimilation, the 'k' is pronounced as an English 'g' (in 'goal'):
    /Dang-guu/ (you may hear something closer to /Dang-geu/ however).


     

    olives

    Senior Member
    French (France)
    I still have some troubles with "i"

    2 - Prettig met u kennis te maken.
    the "i" in "Prettig" and the "i" in "kennis"? It's like a schwa. A very quick, "i" sound. Kind of like the "u" in the English word "busy."

    a Schwa? but the sound "Schwa" is pronounced as in "a" in english => "a dog, a wall, a carpet" no???

    just listen to the sentence and tell me that you can hear a kind of "i" in that :s ?!
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/languages/other/quickfix/dutch.shtml
     

    optimistique

    Senior Member
    I still have some troubles with "i"

    2 - Prettig met u kennis te maken.
    the "i" in "Prettig" and the "i" in "kennis"? It's like a schwa. A very quick, "i" sound. Kind of like the "u" in the English word "busy."

    a Schwa? but the sound "Schwa" is pronounced as in "a" in english => "a dog, a wall, a carpet" no???

    just listen to the sentence and tell me that you can hear a kind of "i" in that :s ?!
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/languages/other/quickfix/dutch.shtml

    Olives, that woman you listen to is English, certainly not Dutch! She has a very weird accent, so I wouldn't bother too much about her exact pronunciation. Her pronunciation is certainly different than that of Native Dutch speakers. You get an idea about it, but this file is not good for exact investigation;)
     

    Chazzwozzer

    Senior Member
    Turkish
    Olives, that woman you listen to is English, certainly not Dutch! She has a very weird accent, so I wouldn't bother too much about her exact pronunciation. Her pronunciation is certainly different than that of Native Dutch speakers. You get an idea about it, but this file is not good for exact investigation;)

    optimistique, how do you pronunce "het spijt me" as a native?
     

    Frank06

    Senior Member
    Nederlands / Dutch (Belgium)
    Hi,

    I think just like me: [hEt sp{it m@]

    "Het spijt me."

    1. 'Het' [h@t].
    But in colloquial, standard Dutch, 'het' normally is pronounced without the -sound. Only in very emphatic speech, the -sound can be heard.
    Also the shwa-sound [@] of 'het' is omitted (at least in this case), which implies that 'het' is reduced in this position to 't'.
    This reduction certainly is not a dialectical feature, it's normal for spoken standard Dutch.

    2. For 'spijt', I'll refer to Sampa. The <ij> graphemes represent a diphtong, notated as [Ei].

    3. 'me' indeed is [m@], the symbol @ here representing a shwa.

    So, all in all, 'Het spijt me' becomes something as
    [tspEitm@]


    Groetjes,

    Frank
     

    KingSix

    Member
    Dutch
    "Het spijt me."

    1. 'Het' [h@t].
    But in colloquial, standard Dutch, 'het' normally is pronounced without the -sound. Only in very emphatic speech, the -sound can be heard.
    Also the shwa-sound [@] of 'het' is omitted (at least in this case), which implies that 'het' is reduced in this position to 't'.
    This reduction certainly is not a dialectical feature, it's normal for spoken standard Dutch.


    I'm not quite sure but I don't think it's that common in the Netherlands, I see it more as a Flemmish feature, like the replacement of the personal pronoums 'je' and 'jij' with 'ge' and 'gij'. These forms are not really dialect and not really formal Dutch.
     

    Frank06

    Senior Member
    Nederlands / Dutch (Belgium)
    Hi,
    I'm not quite sure but I don't think it's that common in the Netherlands,

    Thanks for your reactions, but I have a lot of questions / remarks, which is a polite way of saying that I don't agree with you ;-):

    I listened 3 minutes to the NOS news, and I came across following sentences:
    1. we vonden 'et niet zo erg...
    2. Als 'et niet moet...
    3. 't Zal nog even wennen zijn...

    I didn't have time to listen much longer, or to mark every instance of 'het' as an article or 'het' as a pronoun, but it gives an indication, imho.

    I also checked out some books on Dutch pronunciation: In standard Dutch, north and south, 'het' normally is pronounced as "@t" (See Klinklaar (Flanders) en Spectrum's Uitspraakwoordenboek (The Netherlands and Flanders), often further reduced to /t/. The 'h' is only used emphatically and in many courses for foreigners (where, alas, hardly any attention is given to natural, colloquial but standard speech).

    I see it more as a Flemmish feature, like the replacement of the personal pronoums 'je' and 'jij' with 'ge' and 'gij'. These forms are not really dialect and not really formal Dutch.

    Some remarks:
    1. Formal Dutch is not the same as standard Dutch. Within standard Dutch, there is quite some variation. The enclitic pronoun -ie is more and more considered as standard, but not as formal standard Dutch.
    2. I dunno, this sounds a bit like taking the phrase "hun hebben" and call it typical for the language spoken anywhere in the Netherlands... :). Neither 'hun hebben' and 'ge/gij' are representative for the respective standard variants of Dutch in the Netherlands nor in Flanders.
    BTW, 'ge/gij' is originally used in the Brabantian dialects (which is not Flemish), and though it is spreading, (West-)Flemish (which is Flemish) and Limburg (which is not Flemish) dialects use different sets of pronouns.

    Groetjes, en (he)t allerbeste :)

    Frank
     

    KingSix

    Member
    Dutch
    Hi,


    Thanks for your reactions, but I have a lot of questions / remarks, which is a polite way of saying that I don't agree with you ;-):

    I listened 3 minutes to the NOS news, and I came across following sentences:
    1. we vonden 'et niet zo erg...
    2. Als 'et niet moet...
    3. 't Zal nog even wennen zijn...

    I didn't have time to listen much longer, or to mark every instance of 'het' as an article or 'het' as a pronoun, but it gives an indication, imho.

    I also checked out some books on Dutch pronunciation: In standard Dutch, north and south, 'het' normally is pronounced as "@t" (See Klinklaar (Flanders) en Spectrum's Uitspraakwoordenboek (The Netherlands and Flanders), often further reduced to /t/. The 'h' is only used emphatically and in many courses for foreigners (where, alas, hardly any attention is given to natural, colloquial but standard speech).

    You've convinced me :)

    Some remarks:
    1. Formal Dutch is not the same as standard Dutch. Within standard Dutch, there is quite some variation. The enclitic pronoun -ie is more and more considered as standard, but not as formal standard Dutch.
    2. I dunno, this sounds a bit like taking the phrase "hun hebben" and call it typical for the language spoken anywhere in the Netherlands... :). Neither 'hun hebben' and 'ge/gij' are representative for the respective standard variants of Dutch in the Netherlands nor in Flanders.
    BTW, 'ge/gij' is originally used in the Brabantian dialects (which is not Flemish), and though it is spreading, (West-)Flemish (which is Flemish) and Limburg (which is not Flemish) dialects use different sets of pronouns.

    Groetjes, en (he)t allerbeste :)

    Frank

    The 'gij/ge' pronouns are indeed spreading through culture and media, e.g. politicians in public debates often use a mild dialect 'cause they are trying to be closer to the voters.
    I believe that 'core dialects' (don't know the exact words 'kerndialecten' in Dutch) are evading and and a mixture of standard Dutch with variations of Brabantian dialects is spreading.
     
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