That means if it is the subject in written language,'lui' cannnot be used?shaula said:I would say that no one usese egli in spoken language, while you must use egli in written sentences.
Perfect! You may see it in magazines or newspapers though, since it is spreading as the standard pronoun.MingRaymond said:That means if it is the subject in written language,'lui' cannnot be used?
The correct pronoun for a female is "ella" (essa is for feminine thing) and, yes, the use is the same as lui/egliSo, if it is the subject, I should use 'essa' instead of 'lei' to represent 'she' ?
Indirect. Direct objects are not preceded by prepositions. She sings what? A song = a direct object.rambler said:Thank you for pointing this out.
As a ...direct object, "Lo" .means "him" or "it". Correct?
As an indirect object, "gli" means "him" or "it". Correct?
In the sentence "To him she sings", is "him" a direct or an indirect object? (I thought it was direct.)
Egli end ella are used only in formal letters or documents. I almost never use them. "lui" and "lei" are used both in formal and informal dialogues or letters.Hi,
I'm just beginning to try to learn Italian on my own using a rather old and somewhat limited instruction book that leaves a lot of questions unanswered. Looks like this forum could be very helpful though!
First question: when should I use lui vs egli and lei vs ella?
Duckie - I think that is the case. All my Italian textbooks rarely mention "egli" at all. You'd be fine in just knowing that it is the "ultra" formal way of saying he. Lui and lei are ok!
I've express my opinion about that several times.
In my opinion, a foreign who's studying Italian needs to know they exist and what's their meaning, but why should they worry about using them, if we don't?I've express my opinion about that several times.
If you use "egli" as subject nobody can tell you're wrong.
At university, for example, during an exam, you cannot say "Lui è".
Maybe it's because I've studied at "Liceo classico", but my teachers have always tried to make us speak good Italian.
I understand your point of you. But I think it depends what level the learner wants to reach. You can speak Italian without using passato remoto/condizionale/congiuntivo, but you'll never speak good Italian.In my opinion, a foreign who's studying Italian needs to know they exist and what's their meaning, but why should they worry about using them, if we don't?
I'm happy you want to defend Italian, but about that, we actually use, for example, the conditional in our speeches, but no one (except maybe in the Liceo Classico) uses "egli" or "ella" nowday. If someone did, I would be surprised.I understand your point of you. But I think it depends what level the learner wants to reach. You can speak Italian without using passato remoto/condizionale/congiuntivo, but you'll never speak good Italian.
My advice:Thank you all for your help!
Claudine, I would like to understand the grammatical rules of when to use which word, but the examples you provided confused me.. if you want to try to explain it in more detail I'll be happy to do my best to understand
Meanwhile, I'm studying prepositions
Could you give an example in English of he/she being subject in one sentence and object in another? I might pick it up then.In theory:
Egli/ella are used only when they are the subject of the sentence. They mean he/she. Lui/lei are used when they are the object (only after the verb) and with preposition, like him/her.
P.S. But you have still to study lo/la and gli/le (not the articles) .
Ok:Could you give an example in English of he/she being subject in one sentence and object in another? I might pick it up then.
What do you mean lo/la gli/le not the articles? Are they used for other purposes than the definitive article?
I'd LOVE to have a formal thread about these. I've seen them here on the forum and have been told that they are used formally - little else.Living in Vienna and knowing people who learn Italian, I noticed, that here the words "egli, ella, essi" are not taught: they only teach the use of "lui, lei, loro". I would like to ask non-native speakers, if they learn verbs using "lui" or "egli". And what do the Italians think about? Is it good to teach "lui" or it should be avoided?
Please answer and correct me!
I was never taught egli, ella, and essi. I don't really even know what they are. I see them once in a while, and I remember hearing them for the first time from a nun.
"to teach" is irregular in the past, quindi e' "taught" not "teached"
EDIT: Most of the Italian that I learned, I obtained from friends and experience rather than school. Maybe that is why I never learned egli, essi, and ella.
I was told that they belong to older Italian. But from what I see, that is incorrect.As lots of users have already said, in a written text you have to use egli ella essi. The problem comes when speaking: even if these are the correct ones, you will almost never hear them, because they are too much "correct" even for a very formal speaking contest (e.g. even if you're talking to your boss/teacher/old people you are not supposed to use egli ella and essi). The problem can be avoided by using a name (egli---->Luca e.g.).
Hope it's clear.
What you say is true if you mean "old"="formal written" I mean:I was told that they belong to older Italian. But from what I see, that is incorrect.
I am fortunate to have an excellent teacher who uses different texts.... I would like to ask
toforeign people, if they learned the verbs using "lui" or "egli".
Is "ella" any less common than "egli"?Ella is really uncommon and sounds really old and poetic.
I think a lot of old books with Italian grammer are incorrect, vague, and unnatural, generally speaking. I believe that esso/essa is used for things and even animals. Not people.The 1950 paperback edition "THE BERLITZ SELF TEARCHER: ITALIAN" uses 'essa/egli' on page 20 to construct replies to questions of nationality.
ex: "Si, essa è italiana"
ex: "Si, egli è italiano"
The book doesn't say anything about spoken vs. written Italian and I naturally thought the book could be used to speak the language.
In the examples above, are you saying that 'lei/lui' should replace 'essa(or should it be 'ella')/egli construction when speaking? (Not if you're reading something aloud) Should 'lei/lui' be used in writing today's Italian?
Is the book out of date with today's Italian usage? It keeps the personal pronoun in many of the sentence constructions when it seem to me that the verb conjugation would be enough.