El ojo de la aguja

R

Rainbowlight

Senior Member
Spanish
Hello everyone,

I would like to know how do you call el «"ojo" de una aguja» ("the eye of a needle") in your native language. I am referring to the hole near a sewing needle's point which is used to pass the thread through it.

If this fact can be of any help, in several European languages the word also functions as an homograph for an actual "eye", the one that is located in the human head.

I can't wait to read your answers.

Thanks in advance for your time and help.
 
    • In French:
    Le chas /ʃa/ de l'aiguille.
    The word chas is specific to this context (not to be confused with chat /ʃa/ = cat).

    The etymology is not clear and may come from Latin capsus (cage), through Occitan cas (hole).
     
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    Yendred said:
    In French:
    Le chas /ʃa/ de l'aiguille.
    The word chas is specific to this context (not to be confused with chat /ʃa/ = cat).

    The etymology is not clear and may come from Latin capsus (cage), through Occitan cas (hole).
    Click to expand...
    Merci beaucoup pour votre aide !
     
    Greek:

    «Το μάτι της βελόνας» [t̠o̞ˈmat̠iˌt̠is̠ve̞ˈlo̞nas̠] --> the (neuter definite article in the nominative sing.) eye of the (feminine definite article in the genitive sing.) needle (feminine genitive sing.).

    In Ancient Greek it's «τὸ τρύπημα τῆς ῥαφίδος» /toˈtrypɛːmɐˌtɛ̂ːs.rʰɐˈpʰidos/ --> the (neuter definite article in the nominative sing.) hole of the (feminine definite article in the genitive sing.) needle (feminine genitive sing.).

    -In MoGr the name of the needle is «βελόνα» [ve̞ˈlo̞na] (fem.) < Classical feminine noun «βελόνη» /beˈlonɛː/ --> needle, the feminine form of the neuter «βέλος» /ˈbelos/ --> arrow.
    -In Ancient Greek its predominant name was the 3rd declension feminine «ῥαφίς» /rʰɐˈpʰis/ (nom. sing.), «ῥαφίδος» /rʰɐˈpʰidos/ (gen. sing.) --> sewing needle < Classical v. «ῥάπτω» /ˈrʰɐptɔː/ --> to sew (together), stitch.
     
    apmoy70 said:
    Greek:

    «Το μάτι της βελόνας» [t̠o̞ˈmat̠iˌt̠is̠ve̞ˈlo̞nas̠] --> the (neuter definite article in the nominative sing.) eye of the (feminine definite article in the genitive sing.) needle (feminine genitive sing.).

    In Ancient Greek it's «τὸ τρύπημα τῆς ῥαφίδος» /toˈtrypɛːmɐˌtɛ̂ːs.rʰɐˈpʰidos/ --> the (neuter definite article in the nominative sing.) hole of the (feminine definite article in the genitive sing.) needle (feminine genitive sing.).

    -In MoGr the name of the needle is «βελόνα» [ve̞ˈlo̞na] (fem.) < Classical feminine noun «βελόνη» /beˈlonɛː/ --> needle, the feminine form of the neuter «βέλος» /ˈbelos/ --> arrow.
    -In Ancient Greek its predominant name was the 3rd declension feminine «ῥαφίς» /rʰɐˈpʰis/ (nom. sing.), «ῥαφίδος» /rʰɐˈpʰidos/ (gen. sing.) --> sewing needle < Classical v. «ῥάπτω» /ˈrʰɐptɔː/ --> to sew (together), stitch.
    Click to expand...
    Thank you very much for such a detailed answer. If I have understood well, μάτι is the current Greek name for the "eye" of the needle... and also the "eye" located in the human head. Am I correct?
     
    Rainbowlight said:
    Thank you very much for such a detailed answer. If I have understood well, μάτι is the current Greek name for the "eye" of the needle... and also the "eye" located in the human head. Am I correct?
    Click to expand...
    Indeed, «μάτι» [ˈmat̠i] (neut.) is the name for eye in the vernacular < Byzantine Greek «ὀμμάτι(ο)ν» /om.ˈmati(o)n/ (neut.), the diminutive of the Ancient 3rd declension neuter noun «ὄμμα» /ˈomːɐ/ --> eye (mostly in poetry).
    «Ὄμμα» > «ὀμμάτιον» > «μάτι» (with aphetism & ellipsis).
     
    apmoy70 said:
    Indeed, «μάτι» [ˈmat̠i] (neut.) is the name for eye in the vernacular < Byzantine Greek «ὀμμάτι(ο)ν» /om.ˈmati(o)n/ (neut.), the diminutive of the Ancient 3rd declension neuter noun «ὄμμα» /ˈomːɐ/ --> eye (mostly in poetry).
    «Ὄμμα» > «ὀμμάτιον» > «μάτι» (with aphetism & ellipsis).
    Click to expand...
    Thanks again.
     
    amikama said:
    Hebrew has a specific word for that: קוּף המחט.
    Click to expand...
    Thank you very much for your help.

    Online tools translate קוּף as "ape" or "monkey". Is this translation accurate? In case it is, is there any reason why it is called like that?

    Thanks in advance.
     
    Rainbowlight said:
    Online tools translate קוּף as "ape" or "monkey". Is this translation accurate?
    Click to expand...
    No, what the tools translated was קוֹף (kof), not קוּף (kuf) (note the placement of the dot).

    Morfix (online Hebrew-English dictionary) translates it correctly:
    1686684165691.png
     
    amikama said:
    No, what the tools translated was קוֹף (kof), not קוּף (kuf) (note the placement of the dot).

    Morfix (online Hebrew-English dictionary) translates it correctly:
    View attachment 85399
    Click to expand...
    Thanks for your correction. : )

    Strangely, whether I type קוֹף or קוּף, Google Images seems to make no difference between the two terms and offers me as a result dozens of images of monkeys. Why is that?

    Does קוּף mean "eye" in Hebrew, then?

    Please forgive my clumsiness. : )

    Thanks again.
     
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    Yendred said:
    In French:
    Le chas /ʃa/ de l'aiguille.
    The word chas is specific to this context (not to be confused with chat /ʃa/ = cat).

    The etymology is not clear and may come from Latin capsus (cage), through Occitan cas (hole).
    Click to expand...

    The etymology is also unclear in the sources of the possible cognates in Catalan and Aragonese:

    - Catalan: cos (de l'agulla) -- More commonly said forat (de l'agulla) 'hole (of the needle)' or ull (de l'agulla) 'eye'.​
    - Aragonese: calso (de l'agulla)​

    I am very convinced, though, that these words are related.
     
    Rainbowlight said:
    Strangely, whether I type קוֹף or קוּף, Google Images seems to make no difference between the two terms and offers me as a result dozens of images of monkeys. Why is that?
    Click to expand...
    Because it ignores the nikkud (Hebrew diacritics) and returns results for קוף, which can be read as קוֹף or קוּף. The main meaning "ape/monkey" is by far the most common, while the meaning of "eye (of a needle)" is quite rare. Try searching for קוף המחט instead, it will give you more relevant results.

    Rainbowlight said:
    Does קוּף mean "eye" in Hebrew, then?
    Click to expand...
    Not eye the member, but eye of a needle. It's also the name of the letter ק, but it's not clear whether the word comes from the letter name or the other way around.
     
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    Penyafort said:
    The etymology is also unclear in the sources of the possible cognates in Catalan and Aragonese:

    - Catalan: cos (de l'agulla) -- More commonly said forat (de l'agulla) 'hole (of the needle)' or ull (de l'agulla) 'eye'.​
    - Aragonese: calso (de l'agulla)​

    I am very convinced, though, that these words are related.
    Click to expand...
    Thanks for your help. Given the geographical closeness, I wouldn't be surprised at all if they were related! The origin of the French word seems to be shrouded in mystery as well. Although, "œil" (ojo) or "trou" (agujero) would be the most "logical" options when it comes to choose an adequate name, chas is commonly used.

    Thanks again for your answer.
     
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    amikama said:
    Because it ignores the nikkud (Hebrew diacritics) and returns results for קוף, which can be read as קוֹף or קוּף. The main meaning "ape/monkey" is by far the most common, while the meaning of "eye (of a needle)" is quite rare. Try searching for קוף המחט instead, it will give you more relevant results.


    Not eye the member, but eye of a needle. It's also the name of the letter ק, but it's not clear whether the word comes from the letter name or the way around.
    Click to expand...
    Thanks! I think I understand it now. Google Translate has now yielded the proper results by using your "קוף המחט" formula. What I still don't understand is how קוף and ק can be considered the same word. Do you mean that they are pronounced exactly in the same manner?
     
    Yendred said:
    The etymology is not clear and may come from Latin capsus (cage)
    Click to expand...
    Penyafort said:
    I am very convinced, though, that these words are related.
    Click to expand...
    Note that if this etymology is true, then there are many related words. Just giving some of them in French, but they can be found in all languages:
    caisse (box)
    châsse (a chest used to store holy relics)
    châssis (which has given English chassis)
    casse (which has given English uppercase and lowercase)
    etc.
     
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    Yendred said:
    Note that if this etymology is true, then there are many related words. Just giving some of them in French, but they can be found in all languages:
    caisse (box)
    châsse (a chest used to store holy relics)
    châssis (which has given English chassis)
    casse (which has given English uppercase and lowercase)
    etc.
    Click to expand...
    I myself am not exactly looking for perfect cognates, but I do think that there are several basic roots that, yes, tend to form a common lexicon that is able to transcend geographic boundaries.

    As for your list of French words, it reminded me of a curious phenomenon that I have been noticing for years. Here it goes:

    • Caja ("box" in Spanish) is boîte in French
    • Cojo ("lame" in Spanish") is boiteux in French

    Would you happen to know if this phenomenon has an actual name?
     
    Rainbowlight said:
    As for your list of French words, it reminded me of a curious phenomenon that I have been noticing for years. Here it goes:

    • Caja ("box" in Spanish) is boîte in French
    • Cojo ("lame" in Spanish") is boiteux in French

    Would you happen to know if this phenomenon has an actual name?
    Click to expand...
    I don't know the name, but French boîte and English box have a common Latin origin which reminds that boxes were originally made of wood, and especially in boxwood (Latin buxis).
    Concerning boîteux, it seems to be in the same lexical field, but I can't find a clear reference.
     
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    amikama said:
    ק isn't a word but a letter whose name is קוף.
    Click to expand...
    Now I really got it. I'm truly sorry for not being able to understand it in the first place. : )

    It seems that ק can also function as a numeral and has the value of 100. What this has to do with the word for the eye of a needle, I do not know. Perhaps the wisest move would be to compare the common, everyday Hebrew names for "eye" and "hole" and see if they seem to be linked to other Hebrew words. A tough job, I know.

    Thanks again for your answer.
     
    Cymraeg/Welsh

    Interestingly, we have a similar sound to the obsolete Italian word in crau.

    Cornish gives krow, Breton has crou, Irish has cró. From Indo-European *krawo-

    The etymology is unknown but GPC suggests that it's related to the homonym crau which means 'fence', stall, enclosure' and which is also used in Welsh for 'a pigsty'.

    In the likely event that Welsh people would not know this word in relation to 'eyes of needles', they would resort, like many others, to the equivalent for 'eye' - llygad nodwydd, where llygad ('eye') is in a genitive position to nodwydd ('needle').
     
    Yendred said:
    Concerning boîteux, it seems to be in the same lexical field, but I can't find a clear reference.
    Click to expand...

    A slight diversion, if I may. Is not a canard boiteux the same as a lame duck in English? And what image do we have such a crippled creature - before the use of plaster casts - but probably a bird with a wooden leg, hobbling from place to place.

    Could this be a clue in establishing a link between boite(ux) and wood? My Castilian is not sufficient to suggest any link that way. (A Welsh 'lame duck' is identical in form, hwyaden gloff, but as is normal, with the adjective after the noun.)
     
    Welsh_Sion said:
    Is not a canard boiteux the same as a lame duck in English?
    Click to expand...
    Yes, according to this site, canard boiteux directly comes from the English expression:
    Un canard boiteux - Expressions Francaises

    A canard boiteux is someone who is inefficient, not adapted to the task they are requested to accomplish.

    Concerning boiteux itself, it does not mean a person who has a wooden leg, but who hobbles/limps. See the verb boiter.
    According to the Wiktionnaire, the etymology refers to someone who has dislocated joints (literally who has his "bones out of the box", hence the link with boîte).
    In French, dislocated joint = articulation déboîtée.
     
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    Welsh_Sion said:
    A slight diversion, if I may. Is not a canard boiteux the same as a lame duck in English? And what image do we have such a crippled creature - before the use of plaster casts - but probably a bird with a wooden leg, hobbling from place to place.

    Could this be a clue in establishing a link between boite(ux) and wood? My Castilian is not sufficient to suggest any link that way. (A Welsh 'lame duck' is identical in form, hwyaden gloff, but as is normal, with the adjective after the noun.)
    Click to expand...
    Sadly, I don't know of any expression in Spanish that truly equals that of "lame duck" or canard boiteux". I would have to contemplate a myriad of options before establishing a link between two words, but I think it's only fair to know that Castilian "madera" can also be referred to as "leña". Before the advent of modern prosthetics, there were indeed people who had a "pata de palo", "palo" being the Castilian equivalent of English "pole" or "stick".

    I find that the Spanish expression "a la pata coja" (English "on one foot", "on one leg") poses again interesting questions. Ducks may be known for their plucky plunging, but I find interesting that their gait can be sometimes characterised as comical or clumsy, which indeed seems to be in close relation to the treatment that people with walking disabilities have had to endure.

    And I definitely wouldn't rule out the connection between ducks and wood. The word "decoy" comes to mind - it is wooden, it pretends to be a duck and even its name seems a variation on the word "duck".

    I save another curiosity for last: French "canard" can also mean "a piece of news that is completely fabricated" or "a worthless journal". There is indeed a well-known satirical French newspaper called "Le Canard enchainé".
     
    Rainbowlight said:
    French "canard" can also mean "a piece of news that is completely fabricated" or "a worthless journal". There is indeed a well-known satirical French newspaper called "Le Canard enchainé".
    Click to expand...
    Yes indeed, and the origin of the meaning canard = worthless newspaper is quite twisted, and goes back to the 18th century.
    Originally, un canard was someone talkative, like if they were quacking like a duck, then by association un canard became a lie, a "fake news" as we would say today, and finally referred to a newspaper that published such fake news.

    Obviously, Le Canard enchainé used the word ironically, since they don't publish fake news, but scoopy news usually about the political world.
     
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    Yendred said:
    Yes indeed, and the origin of the meaning canard = worthless newspaper is quite twisted, and goes back to the 18th century.
    Orginally, un canard was someone talkative, like if they were quacking like a duck, then by association un canard became a lie, a "fake news" as we would say today, and finally referred to a newspaper that published such fake news.
    Click to expand...
    Merci pour votre réponse.
     
    Yendred said:
    Yes indeed, and the origin of the meaning canard = worthless newspaper is quite twisted, and goes back to the 18th century.
    Originally, un canard was someone talkative, like if they were quacking like a duck, then by association un canard became a lie, a "fake news" as we would say today, and finally referred to a newspaper that published such fake news.

    Obviously, Le Canard enchainé used the word ironically, since they don't publish fake news, but scoopy news usually about the political world.
    Click to expand...
    I think it's remarkable that even that, down to the journal's name and its logotype depicting a duck, we can observe again a connection with limpness. Here, too, the duck seems to be in close relationship with something that seems to hinder its normal walk. Le Canard enchainé seems to be, in a way, also lame.
     
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    Rainbowlight said:
    Le Canard enchainé seems to be, in a way, also lame.
    Click to expand...

    Do you mean this in a rather English slangy sense - that Le Canard Enchainé is rather of poor quality as are its jokes, cartoons etc? We can always make this collocation in English:

    A: Why do witches fly on broomsticks?
    Because vacuum cleaners are too heavy!
    B: [Groaning as if in pain] That joke was so feeble. It was lame.
     
    Welsh_Sion said:
    Do you mean this in a rather English slangy sense - that Le Canard Enchainé is rather of poor quality as are its jokes, cartoons etc? We can always make this collocation in English:

    A: Why do witches fly on broomsticks?
    Because vacuum cleaners are too heavy!
    B: [Groaning as if in pain] That joke was so feeble. It was lame.No way
    Click to expand...

    By good heavens, no! I am certainly aware of that meaning of the word "lame". But what I meant is that the concept of a duck could be associated with a certain limpness, meaning a walk that is not continuous and, to some observers, not specially graceful.

    The name and logotype of the first iteration of "Le Canard Enchainé" depicted a duck tied by a leash made of chains. Therefore, he or she is chained. Being chained could very well affect its walking and gait, likening it to a less-than-stylish lame duck.

    And, last but not least, I would certainly take in account the fact that the current logotype depicts the duck as an animal that is wearing a hat and a red bow tie.
     
    Dutch: het oog van de naald. Now i think that in some languages (like German) it is the ear of the needle. But I once heard some priest preach that it was just the name of a narrow gate, where donekeys could not pass loaded/....
     
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