el uso del subjunctivo

Kirk

Member
USA, english
Tengo una pregunta. En una cancion que canta el TRI hay una linea que dice

No hagas nada que no hiciera yo.

Con el subjunctivo esa oracion quiere decir

Don't do anything that I wouldn't do. Verdad? Y si es asi, por favor, explicame porque. Mi duda es sobre el uso de "Hiciera".

Sin hiciera seria
No hagas nada que no hice yo y eso queria decir
Don't do anything that I didn't do. Verdad?
Gracias por tu ayuda de antemano.
 
  • Artrella

    Banned
    BA
    Spanish-Argentina
    Kirk said:
    Tengo una pregunta. En una cancion que canta el TRI hay una linea que dice

    No hagas nada que no hiciera yo.

    Con el subjunctivo esa oracion quiere decir

    Don't do anything that I wouldn't do. Verdad? Y si es asi, por favor, explicame porque. Mi duda es sobre el uso de "Hiciera".

    Sin hiciera seria
    No hagas nada que no hice yo y eso queria decir
    Don't do anything that I didn't do. Verdad?
    Gracias por tu ayuda de antemano.


    De dónde es este cantante o grupo?

    Yo diría " No hagas nada que yo no haría" (Don't do anything I wouldn't do)

    Muchas veces se confunde al potencial (haría) con el subjuntivo. Muchos Latinoamericanos confunden el uso de los modos verbales.
    Acá en Argentina, cada vez se usa más (incorrectamente) el potencial en lugar del subjuntivo y dicen:

    "Si yo tendría un auto, iría de viaje" esto está mal porque es "Si yo tuviera o tuviese (subj) un auto, iría (potencial) de viaje"

    Saludos, Art :) :p ;)
     

    Leopold

    Senior Member
    España - Español
    Es extraño.
    No hagas nada que yo no HAYA hecho (antes).
    No hagas nada que yo no hiciera.

    A mí no me suena mal. "No hagas nada que yo no haría" cuando lo he leído me ha sonado mal, pero luego he dudado. Y dudando sigo...
     
    Another question.

    ... no hagas nada malo que no hiciera yo

    this is the original song lyric (song letter)

    Question 1

    What expression is correct? song lyric or song letter.

    Question 2

    Is correct this translation?

    ... no hagas nada malo que no hiciera yo

    ... do not do nothing bad that I would not do

    or ... Do not do anything bad that I would not do

    Saludos


    Kirk said:
    ... No hagas nada que no hiciera yo.

    Con el subjunctivo esa oracion quiere decir

    Don't do anything that I wouldn't do. Verdad? Y si es asi, por favor, explicame porque. Mi duda es sobre el uso de "Hiciera".
     

    patylujan

    Senior Member
    spanish
    "Las piedras rodando se encuentran..
    y tu y yo algun dia nos volveremos a encontrar
    mientras tanto cuidate,
    y que te bendiga Dios
    no hagas nada malo que no hiciera yo"

    Bonita canción!
    Creo que lo correcto es "Do not do anything bad that I would not do"

    ;)
     

    Philippa

    Senior Member
    Britain - English
    el_novato said:
    What expression is correct? song lyric or song letter.
    Saludos
    Hola el_novato
    We say lyrics for a song and not letter or even lyric in the singular, except maybe when we talk about just one little bit 'What was that lyric?' meaning perhaps one line or phrase of the song.
    Happy singing!! :)
    Philippa
     

    Artrella

    Banned
    BA
    Spanish-Argentina
    Leopold said:
    Es extraño.
    No hagas nada que yo no HAYA hecho (antes).
    No hagas nada que yo no hiciera.

    A mí no me suena mal. "No hagas nada que yo no haría" cuando lo he leído me ha sonado mal, pero luego he dudado. Y dudando sigo...




    Uh, sí!! Ahora me hacés dudar a mí también!!

    Yo supuse esto :

    1- Yo no haría X cosa porque lo considero perjudicial (una suposición)
    2- te pido que vos no hagas eso que yo no haría (X)
    3- No hagas lo que yo no haría

    Qué te parece este razonamiento tipo silogismo???


    De todos modos estoy de acuerdo con tu segunda oración (puesto que está en pasado, pero no tiene la connotación de algo hipotético ==> sí lo tendría, a mi parecer, esta oración "No hagas nada que yo no HUBIERA hecho".)

    En cambio "hiciera" o "haría" tienen esa idea de algo hipotético, que es lo que justamente indica el modo subjuntivo.

    Ahora, mi pregunta es: en la oración original del grupo TRI necesitamos subjuntivo o condicional??? Habría que empezar por ahí.


    Saludos, Art :) ;) :p
     

    belén

    Senior Member
    Spanish, Spain, Catalan, Mallorca
    A mi me habéis hecho pensar un ratito también...

    A mi me suena bien la opcíon artrelliana
    No hagas nada que yo no haría

    La del grupo TRI me suena rara porque no entiendo el subjuntivo en ese caso.
    No hagas nada que yo no hiciera - le falta algo...
    "No hagas nada que yo no hiciera antes" por ejemplo, ¿os suena bien?
     
    "...no hagas nada malo que no hiciera yo"

    belen said:
    ...No hagas nada malo que no hiciera yo que yo no hiciera - le falta algo...
    "No hagas nada que yo no hiciera antes" por ejemplo, ¿os suena bien?

    Hola belen:

    Supongo que estás hablando de como sería la expresión correcta en caso de utlizarse. Ya que la expresión de la canción fue hecha para que el tono quedara bien.

    En lo particular me gustan los tangos (y Argentina), si tienes oportunidad de escucharlos, verás que hay un montón de expresiones que debido a su estructura han de ser la pesadilla de la RAE, y el odio de todos los amantes de la gramática.

    Espero que no me consideres un detractor del lenguaje

    Otro ejemplo son las expresiones alternativas (espero que no se moleste Leopold por citar su ejemplo, o me cobre los derechos de autor. Saludos Leopodl):

    http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=7820

    Leopold said:
    Se puede decir "dar un pasaje", si no me equivoco. Pero lo más normal es "¿Me llevas...?".
    el_novato said:
    Asi es Leopold, pero en "expresiones alternativas", ¿quién se va a andar preocupando de lo normal o correcto que sea?
     

    Kirk

    Member
    USA, english
    El Novato: Tienes mucha razon. Solo quisiera hacerte otra pregunta. Cual seria la diferencia entre.

    No hagas nada malo que no hiciera yo.
    No hagas nada malo que no haria yo.
    No se porque se usa el subjunctivo aqui cuando creo que se puede usar el potencial (haria). Siempre quiero saber porque. A veces entiendo lo que algo quiere decir pero despues quiero saber porque. Eso es como aprendo yo.

    Pero muchisimas gracias por tu ayuda.
     

    Kirk

    Member
    USA, english
    Dime si estas oraciones son iguales:

    Si yo tuviera/tuviese dinero, yo habria comprado un coche
    Si yo tuviera/tuviese dinero, yo hubiera comprado un coche.

    Es la misma oracion. Verdad?

    y por eso creo que
    No haga nada malo que no hiciera yo.
    No haga nada malo que no haria yo.

    Lo mismo. Verdad?
     
    Ah jijos !!!

    Kirk said:
    ... Solo quisiera hacerte otra pregunta. Cual seria la diferencia entre. ...
    The meaning of both sentence is the same, or it is possible to understand the same meaning in them.


    Kirk said:
    ... No se porque se usa el subjunctivo aqui cuando creo que se puede usar el potencial (haria). ...

    The first difference I can perceive, it is the harmony in the tune- song - key .
     
    Thank you, it is a pleasure to help you. In Resume, the meaning of the sentences is the same, only the experts can have an objection about what is grammatically correct. But anyway, if you can learn more about it, only ask, we have experts in several fields.

    saludos

    el novato
     

    Edwin

    Senior Member
    USA / Native Language: English
    el_novato said:
    Thank you, it is a pleasure to help you. In Resume, the meaning of the sentences is the same, only the experts can have an objection about what is grammatically correct. But anyway, if you can learn more about it, only ask, we have experts in several fields.

    saludos

    el novato

    En inglés es muy común decir (cuando un amigo sale):

    Don't do anything I wouldn't do!

    ¿Hay tal expresíon parecida que usas en castellano con frecuencia? ¿Qué sería?
     

    sergio11

    Senior Member
    Spanish (lunfardo)
    Edwin said:
    En inglés es muy común decir (cuando un amigo sale):

    Don't do anything I wouldn't do!

    ¿Hay tal expresíon parecida que usas en castellano con frecuencia? ¿Qué sería?

    Sí, la hay: lee el primer "posting" de Artrella en la página 1.

    De paso, ¿cómo se dice "a post" y "posting" en español?
     

    gaer

    Senior Member
    US-English
    "Dont' do anything I wouldn't do", I think, has to be kept that way, without adding or changing words because it is idiomatic. "Don't do anything I didn't do" is grammatically correct, but it sounds very strange to me.

    As an American I've heard this expression all my life and never once thought about what it really means. I wonder if anyone else has definite ideas about the exact meaning?
     

    sergio11

    Senior Member
    Spanish (lunfardo)
    gaer said:
    "Dont' do anything I wouldn't do", I think, has to be kept that way, without adding or changing words because it is idiomatic. "Don't do anything I didn't do" is grammatically correct, but it sounds very strange to me.

    As an American I've heard this expression all my life and never once thought about what it really means. I wonder if anyone else has definite ideas about the exact meaning?

    If you refer to "Dont' do anything I wouldn't do," I think it simply means follow my ethical principles, adhere to my morals, or stick to my teachings. For example, a father telling it to his son when lending him the car, may mean "don't race on the streets, you know I wouldn't," or "don't drink and drive, you know I woudn't." When you tell it to someone who will invest money, you may mean "don't buy risky investments, you know I wouldn't." When you tell it to your daughter when she will go out of town, it may mean "don't go to dangerous places, you know I wouldn't," etc.
     

    gaer

    Senior Member
    US-English
    sergio11 said:
    If you refer to "Dont' do anything I wouldn't do," I think it simply means follow my ethical principles, adhere to my morals, or stick to my teachings. For example, a father telling it to his son when lending him the car, may mean "don't race on the streets, you know I wouldn't," or "don't drink and drive, you know I woudn't." When you tell it to someone who will invest money, you may mean "don't buy risky investments, you know I wouldn't." When you tell it to your daughter when she will go out of town, it may mean "don't go to dangerous places, you know I wouldn't," etc.

    You're probably dead-on. But isn't there also a humorous usage?

    "Don't do anything I wouldn't do", when used lightly, seems to have a slightly different meaning, but I can't pin it down. It's almost like saying:

    "Don't do anything I wouldn't do (but you know I'm the type of person who will do just about anything)." I'm thinking of a high school student talking to another, or a college student talking to another. That kind of thing.

    It's just one of those phrases I've heard and perhaps even used without really thinking about it. Often when people from other countries ask me what such expressions mean, I get totally stumped, as if my own language tempoarily is working like a second language. :)
     

    Edwin

    Senior Member
    USA / Native Language: English
    gaer said:
    You're probably dead-on. But isn't there also a humorous usage?

    "Don't do anything I wouldn't do", when used lightly, seems to have a slightly different meaning, but I can't pin it down. It's almost like saying:

    "Don't do anything I wouldn't do (but you know I'm the type of person who will do just about anything)." I'm thinking of a high school student talking to another, or a college student talking to another. That kind of thing.

    Yes! I think it is perhaps always used jokingly with the idea gaer gives. It seems to me very unlikely that it would be used by a parent to a child or in any serious way.

    No es el mismo con ''no hagas nada que yo no haría'' en castellano? No es siempre usado humorísticamente?
     

    cubaMania

    Senior Member
    In my experience the phrase "Don't do anything I wouldn't do." is always used lightly, and the ambiguity is intentional and part of the meaning. The speaker is leaving open--with a wink--the question of just how good or bad he himself might be, and therefore just how good or bad he is advising you to be.
     

    gaer

    Senior Member
    US-English
    cubaMania said:
    In my experience the phrase "Don't do anything I wouldn't do." is always used lightly, and the ambiguity is intentional and part of the meaning. The speaker is leaving open--with a wink--the question of just how good or bad he himself might be, and therefore just how good or bad he is advising you to be.

    I'm glad all of you agree with me, because I was not sure. Again, as a "native speaker", I often suddenly lose any sure feeling I had about a phrase or idiom when I think about it too hard. But I remember my friends often saying this, and usually it was pretty obvious they were about to do all sorts of things that a sensible person should NOT do.

    Strangely, I've never said it myself, which is why I had to think a bit.
     

    te gato

    Senior Member
    Alberta--TGE (te gato English)
    cubaMania said:
    In my experience the phrase "Don't do anything I wouldn't do." is always used lightly, and the ambiguity is intentional and part of the meaning. The speaker is leaving open--with a wink--the question of just how good or bad he himself might be, and therefore just how good or bad he is advising you to be.

    I agree, here if you say that to anyone it is in a joking way, who is to say what any of us would do??? It leaves the door wide open for anything. Usually said to someone when they go out on a date!!! along with "If you are not in bed by 12 come home" :D they kind of go hand in hand here.
    Te gato;)
     

    Luigiyankee

    Senior Member
    Spain-Spanish
    Artrella, estoy completamente de acuerdo con tu primera respuesta.

    "No hagas nada que yo no haría (si fuese tu/si estuviese ahí)" Creo que intentar acabar la frase te aclara más el tiempo verbal, no?

    No se, es un truco que uso a veces.

    Slds. Luis.
     

    Rayines

    Senior Member
    Castellano/Argentina
    Coincido con esta opinión de Artrella:
    Yo diría " No hagas nada que yo no haría" (Don't do anything I wouldn't do)
    Y creo que la clave está aquí:
    Supongo que estás hablando de como sería la expresión correcta en caso de utlizarse. Ya que la expresión de la canción fue hecha para que el tono quedara bien.
    The first difference I can perceive, it is the harmony in the tune- song - key .

     

    Artrella

    Banned
    BA
    Spanish-Argentina
    You know... yesterday I was listening to the song "La maza" by Silvio Rodríguez, and he says .."qué cosa fuera la maza sin cantera". Here he has to use the conditional "sería" and not the subjunctive "fuera". I've heard many a time this construction among some Latinamerican people.


    This is the song

    Si no creyera en la locura
    de la garganta del sinsonte
    si no creyera que en el monte
    se esconde el trino y la pavura.

    Si no creyera en la balanza
    en la razón del equilibrio
    si no creyera en el delirio
    si no creyera en la esperanza.

    Si no creyera en lo que agencio
    si no creyera en mi camino
    si no creyera en mi sonido
    si no creyera en mi silencio.


    Que cosa fuera
    Que cosa fuera la maza sin cantera
    un amasijo hecho de cuerdas y tendones
    un revoltijo de carne con madera
    un instrumento sin mejores resplandores
    que lucecitas montadas para escena
    que cosa fuera -corazon- que cosa fuera
    que cosa fuera la maza sin cantera
    un testaferro del traidor de los aplausos
    un servidor de pasado en copa nueva
    un eternizador de dioses del ocaso
    jubilo hervido con trapo y lentejuela
    que cosa fuera -corazon- que cosa fuera
    que cosa fuera la maza sin cantera
    que cosa fuera -corazon- que cosa fuera
    que cosa fuera la maza sin cantera.

    Si no creyera en lo mas duro
    si no creyera en el deseo
    si no creyera en lo que creo
    si no ceyera en algo puro.

    Si no creyera en cada herida
    si no creyera en la que ronde
    si no creyera en lo que esconde
    hacerse hermano de la vida.

    Si no creyera en quien me escucha
    si no creeyera en lo que duele
    si no creyera en lo que queda
    si no creyera en lo que lucha.

    Que cosa fuera...



    Here we can see that after the verb in subjunctive mood ("creyera") we need a conditional or potential mood ("sería") and not "fuera". :arrow: The correct construction would have been "si no creyera en lo que duele... qué cosa sería...."

    Hope this helps to enlarge the notion of the use of the subjunctive.


    :p
     

    Eustache

    Senior Member
    Costa Rica
    bueno pus... dado que es una canción puede que:

    1) No hagas nada que yo no HUBIERA hecho no rime, y tal vez
    2) no hagas nada que no hiciera yo si lo haga

    Y por otro, eso depende de como estemos entendiendo la frase:

    a mi me parece que el mae del TRI esta "planteando" una situación hipotética y portanto el subjuntivo esta bien.

    Que cosa sería
    Que cosa sería la maza sin cantera

    pues igual aqui como que no rima!
    ciertamente algunas veces necesitamos eliminar unas cuantas reglas en favor del arte! :p
     
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