elatives

eac

Senior Member
USA, English
Can pronoun suffixes be attached directly to elatives? It is possible to have أبرزها ("the most salient of them") instead of أبرز منها ? The sentence that inspired the question is this (from the same article about الجفوة العربية لبغداد that I asked about a while ago, which I'm finally returning to):

وإذا كانت هناك أسباب كثيرة لمعارضة الحرب على العراق, فثمة أسباب عديدة أيضاً تحمل الحكومات العربية على اعادة تقييم علاقاتها مع الحكومة العراقية, لعل أبرزها الحيلولة من دون توجه العراق الى دول أخرى للحصول على دعم بديل.


I want to translate this as:​

If there are many reasons to oppose the war on Iraq, then there are also numerous reasons weighing upon the Arab governments to re-establish their relations with the Iraqi government. Perhaps the most salient of them is to prevent Iraq's turning its attention to other countries to obtain alternate support.

I think this is basically the correct translation, but I never saw an elative with a pronoun suffix attached, just the elative + مِن + suffix.
 
  • elroy

    Imperfect Mod
    US English/Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    Yes, أبرزها is perfectly correct and idiomatic. In fact, the alternative you suggest would not work here.

    It literally means "the most salient of them" (as you translated it). It is as a substitute for "أبرز الأسباب" - the most salient of the reasons.

    Remember that "of" does not exist as such in Arabic, which is why you just attach "them" (for which you use the feminine in this case) to the adjective.

    "The most salient" is الأبرز, but the article is dropped because of the genitive construction.

    "أبرز منها" means "more salient than it/her/them."
    "الأبرز منها" means "that which is/the one that is more salient than it/her/them."

    I hope that helps.
     

    cherine

    Moderator
    Arabic (Egypt).
    Hi, I'm not sur I know what elatives are in Arabic, so I can't answer the question directly.

    But here's my take on the translation itself. It's very good work, I only changed very few things.

    While there are many reasons to oppose the war on Iraq, then there are also numerous reasons forcing the Arab governments to reconsider their relations with the Iraqi government. Perhaps the most salient of them (these reasons)is to prevent Iraq's turning its attention to other countries for alternate support.​

    Can pronoun suffixes be attached directly to elatives? It is possible to have أبرزها ("the most salient of them") instead of أبرز منها ?
    If elative is أفعل التفضيل than yes, pronoun suffixes can be attached directly to it. The difference between the two alternatives you gave is :
    abrazuha : the most salient of them
    abrazu minha : more salient than it
    So, as you can see, the meaning is totally different.

    If I misunderstood you, please let me know.
     

    elroy

    Imperfect Mod
    US English/Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    Some comments on your corrections:

    While (this is ok, I guess, but the "if...then" construction can be rhetorically used in English just as in Arabic so I see no reason to change it) there are many reasons to oppose the war on Iraq, then there are also numerous reasons forcing (do you understand تحمل to mean "forcing"?) the Arab governments to reconsider (I agree with this) their relations with the Iraqi government. Perhaps the most salient of them (these reasons)is to prevent Iraq's turning its attention to other countries for ("to obtain" is more similar to the original Arabic, although I agree that "for" is more concise) alternate support.​

    If I misunderstood you, please let me know.
    I think you understood the question well. Well, at least you understood it the way I did - since your thoughts were pretty much an echo of mine. ;)
     

    cherine

    Moderator
    Arabic (Egypt).
    Some comments on your comments :)

    While (this is ok, I guess, but the "if...then" construction can be rhetorically used in English just as in Arabic so I see no reason to change it) I don't think the sentence is about consequence (if... then), it's more of two thing happening in the same time, this is why I chose "while". We can replace the Arabic وإذا كانت with بالرغم من أن then فثمة with إلا أن .

    there are also numerous reasons forcing (do you understand تحمل to mean "forcing"?) Yes تحمل على means forcing or pushing someone to do something.

    I think you understood the question well. Well, at least you understood it the way I did - since your thoughts were pretty much an echo of mine. ;)
    I'm glad we understood it the same why :) though you seem to infer I was just rephrasing your words.
    Mashi ;)
     

    elroy

    Imperfect Mod
    US English/Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    While (this is ok, I guess, but the "if...then" construction can be rhetorically used in English just as in Arabic so I see no reason to change it) I don't think the sentence is about consequence (if... then), it's more of two thing happening in the same time, this is why I chose "while". We can replace the Arabic وإذا كانت with بالرغم من أن then فثمة with إلا أن .
    Exactly. What I was trying to say was that you can use "if...then" in this same way in English without suggesting a consequence. :)

    there are also numerous reasons forcing (do you understand تحمل to mean "forcing"?) Yes تحمل على means forcing or pushing someone to do something.
    Hm...I found "forcing" a little too..."forceful" :p but I could be splitting hairs.

    I'm glad we understood it the same why :) though you seem to infer I was just rephrasing your words.
    Mashi ;)
    In a way, you were - which is good because that helps reassure me and the original poster that my answer was on the right track. ;)
     

    elroy

    Imperfect Mod
    US English/Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    ayed said:
    May we use:
    The most salient of which ?
    Yes, with a change in the syntax:

    If there are many reasons to oppose the war on Iraq, then there are also numerous reasons weighing upon the Arab governments to re-establish their relations with the Iraqi government, perhaps the most salient of which is to prevent Iraq's turning its attention to other countries to obtain alternate support.

    The original construction is much better.
     
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