EN: Est-ce que quelqu'un peut me prêter sa voiture ?
- Thread starter The Ho
- Start date
The correct sentence is "Can someone lend me his car"
Because in English, the neutre form is "he". But people often say "their" in order to get around the fact that the person could be mmale or female, like they do not wish to sexually discriminate. It is often said, even written, as "their" (plural!!!) when it should be "his" (singular!!!)
In this example, you don't have that problem in French, because the poseessive pronoun agrees with the car and not the person sa voiture, his (or her) car...
Does that make sense?
elle aime bien sa maison/il aime bien sa maison
Elle aime bien son chat/il aime bien son chat
She likes her house/He likes his house
She likes her cat/He likes his cat
)
Because in English, the neutre form is "he". But people often say "their" in order to get around the fact that the person could be mmale or female, like they do not wish to sexually discriminate. It is often said, even written, as "their" (plural!!!) when it should be "his" (singular!!!)
In this example, you don't have that problem in French, because the poseessive pronoun agrees with the car and not the person sa voiture, his (or her) car...
Does that make sense?
elle aime bien sa maison/il aime bien sa maison
Elle aime bien son chat/il aime bien son chat
She likes her house/He likes his house
She likes her cat/He likes his cat
)Thank you for your explanation. So, should I start using this turn of phrase, even though it is improper, or stick to "as it should be" ?badgrammar said:The correct sentence is "Can someone lend me his car"
Because in English, the neutre form is "he". But people often say "their" in order to get around the fact that the person could be mmale or female, like they do not wish to sexually discriminate. It is often said, even written, as "their" (plural!!!) when it should be "his" (singular!!!)
In this example, you don't have that problem in French, because the poseessive pronoun agrees with the car and not the person sa voiture, his (or her) car...
Does that make sense?
elle aime bien sa maison/il aime bien sa maison
Elle aime bien son chat/il aime bien son chat
She likes her house/He likes his house
She likes her cat/He likes his cat
Now that's interesting. I've always seen the plural used with someone, including on these forums.
From what you're saying, badgrammar, I infer it's grammatical correctness versus political correctness. Is it really just that?
From what you're saying, badgrammar, I infer it's grammatical correctness versus political correctness
. Is it really just that?
I would say, adapt it to the circumstances, like the locals do!
1. For written English, use the proper form.
Another option in written English is to write his/her
"I asked if someone could lend me his/her car"
I rarely use that, but a lot of people do. Je trouve ça lourd!
2. In everyday casual situations, even I would be more likely to say "their".
3. You can get around it by saying something like
"I need to borrow a car from somebody!"
1. For written English, use the proper form.
Another option in written English is to write his/her
"I asked if someone could lend me his/her car"
I rarely use that, but a lot of people do. Je trouve ça lourd!
2. In everyday casual situations, even I would be more likely to say "their".
3. You can get around it by saying something like
"I need to borrow a car from somebody!"
LV4-26 said:Now that's interesting. I've always seen the plural used with someone, including on these forums.
From what you're saying, badgrammar, I infer it's grammatical correctness versus political correctness
I think so, yes, but I don't know if it's an intentional thing or not - I remember always making the mistake as a child in school... If you are referring to both genders, there is something strage about saying "his". At some point I learned that was incorrect, but in speech I still say it. As per somone, yes it is singular... although you will often here "their" in the following types of sentences:
Someone forgot his slippers vs. Some people forgot their slippers.
(Quelqu'un a oublié ses pantoufles vs. Quelques personnes ont oublié leurs pantoufles)
Someone lost his hat - Some people lost their hats
Yup. Someone is singular...
On va vous dire que "their", désignant une personne inconnue, n'appartient qu'à un langage négligent mais ça s'entend partout. En outre une phrase comme "someone ran through the room but I didn't see his face" est bizarre à mon oreille puisqu'on ne sait pas s'il s'agit d'un homme ou pas, mais également "someone ran through the room but I didn't see his or her face" est trop lourde comme phrase.
Je ne sais pas mais si je devais deviner je dirais que "their" pour désigner quelqu'un d'inconnu n'a rien à voir avec un usage abusif qui veut que l'on utile la forme du pluriel puisque ça peut être un homme ou bien une femme mais plutôt un usage indépendant qui existe depuis longtemps pour désigner un inconnu;"they" étant une forme neutre du singulier en plus de la forme du pluriel.
Edit - google semble être du même avis que moi. Voici un lien -
http://www.crossmyt.com/hc/linghebr/austheir.html#X1a
dont je soulignerais ceci (qui, étant moins de 4 phrases ne contrevient pas aux règles!! )
Singular "their" etc., was an accepted part of the English language before the 18th-century grammarians started making arbitrary judgements as to what is "good English" and "bad English", based on a kind of pseudo-"logic" deduced from the Latin language, that has nothing whatever to do with English. (See the 1975 journal article by Anne Bodine in the bibliography.) And even after the old-line grammarians put it under their ban, this anathematized singular "their" construction never stopped being used by English-speakers, both orally and by serious literary writers. So it's time for anyone who still thinks that singular "their" is so-called "bad grammar" to get rid of their prejudices and pedantry!
Je ne sais pas mais si je devais deviner je dirais que "their" pour désigner quelqu'un d'inconnu n'a rien à voir avec un usage abusif qui veut que l'on utile la forme du pluriel puisque ça peut être un homme ou bien une femme mais plutôt un usage indépendant qui existe depuis longtemps pour désigner un inconnu;"they" étant une forme neutre du singulier en plus de la forme du pluriel.
Edit - google semble être du même avis que moi. Voici un lien -
http://www.crossmyt.com/hc/linghebr/austheir.html#X1a
dont je soulignerais ceci (qui, étant moins de 4 phrases ne contrevient pas aux règles!!
)Singular "their" etc., was an accepted part of the English language before the 18th-century grammarians started making arbitrary judgements as to what is "good English" and "bad English", based on a kind of pseudo-"logic" deduced from the Latin language, that has nothing whatever to do with English. (See the 1975 journal article by Anne Bodine in the bibliography.) And even after the old-line grammarians put it under their ban, this anathematized singular "their" construction never stopped being used by English-speakers, both orally and by serious literary writers. So it's time for anyone who still thinks that singular "their" is so-called "bad grammar" to get rid of their prejudices and pedantry!
Oui, on l'entend partout, et ça fait parti du langage courant, comme tant d'autre choses. Et effectivement, ça semblerait logique qu'il y ait un pronom neutre au singulier... Mais hélas! 'Y en a pas! Ce n'est pas "proper English".
Ceci dit, une langue vivante est précisemment ça, une langue qui change et évolue, et qui est maniée avec force par ses interlocuteurs... qui gagnent parfois sur l'usage dit "propre". (Regarde le cas des es haricots verts...)
But My 8th grade English teasher, Maggie, would certainly have marked it wrong. And she was always right !
Ceci dit, une langue vivante est précisemment ça, une langue qui change et évolue, et qui est maniée avec force par ses interlocuteurs... qui gagnent parfois sur l'usage dit "propre". (Regarde le cas des es haricots verts...)
But My 8th grade English teasher, Maggie, would certainly have marked it wrong. And she was always right
!badgrammar said:Oui, on l'entend partout, et ça fait parti du langage courant, comme tant d'autre choses. Et effectivement, ça semblerait logique qu'il y ait un pronom neutre au singulier... Mais hélas! 'Y en a pas! Ce n'est pas "proper English".
Ceci dit, une langue vivante est précisemment ça, une langue qui change et évolue, et qui est maniée avec force par ses interlocuteurs... qui gagnent parfois sur l'usage dit "propre". (Regarde le cas des es haricots verts...)
But My 8th grade English teasher, Maggie, would certainly have marked it wrong. And she was always right
Ton prof, elle interdisait les phrases qui finissaient par une préposition, je m'imagine, et imposait d'autres "règles" qui ont été inventées contre l'usage commun ? Voir plus haut un petit addendum que j'ai mis à mon message à cet égard.
<very interesting, indeed. And, ya, she would not have appreciated a sentence that ended with a preposition.
Alright then, write it and say it as you please. But just steer clear of my teacher Maggie)
Alright then, write it and say it as you please. But just steer clear of my teacher Maggie
)timpeac said:
Outsider said:
Mais si nous considérions "they" comme une forme s'appliquant aux personnes dont le sexe est inconnu, chose qu'on ne voit pas dans les langues romanes ? "Neutre" c'est peut-être pas le meilleur choix pour la terme puisque c'est déjà pris, comme tu le dis, pour désigner "it".
On pourrait peut-être dire qu'il s'agit du "default" (défaut?), mais je comprends pourquoi on appelle "neutre" à cette usage de "their". En vérité, cela ne cause pas de confusion, car le genre grammatical n'est que vestigial en anglais, mais je voulais quand-même faire cette précision.
Je trouve ce phénomène intéressant. C'est curieux comme une langue qui s'a débarassé presque completement des distinctions de genre, est pourtant restée fidèle aux catégories des langues anciennes dans ce qui concerne les pronoms personnels du singulier.
Je trouve ce phénomène intéressant. C'est curieux comme une langue qui s'a débarassé presque completement des distinctions de genre, est pourtant restée fidèle aux catégories des langues anciennes dans ce qui concerne les pronoms personnels du singulier.
du pronom (personnel) par défaut.Outsider said:
The Ho said:J'aimerais clarifier cette question d'accord de nombre. En français, on dit :
"Est-ce que quelqu'un peut me prêter sa voiture ?" OK.
quote]
In French, the basic rule when you don't know if it is a female or a male, or if you're talking in a generic way: you use the masculin.
Le masculin l'emporte. (même si nous ne sommes pas toutes d'accord!