English: by and by

ManOfWords

ManOfWords

Senior Member
Português [Brasil]
by and by: in a short time

hi all, what individually each 'by' there means?

by: over; past:in times gone by. This 'by' makes sense, is it from this that 'by and by' came from? if so, makes little sense to me ... any other origin?
 
    • According to etymonline.com (etymology of English words, on line):

    The phrase by and by (early 14c.) originally meant "one by one," with by apparently denoting succession; the modern sense of "before long" is from 1520s.

    The phrase "one by one" is still used in modern English. The article at the website discusses various uses and meaning of by back in those days:

    by | Origin and meaning of by by Online Etymology Dictionary
     
    dojibear said:
    According to etymonline.com (etymology of English words, on line):

    The phrase by and by (early 14c.) originally meant "one by one," with by apparently denoting succession; the modern sense of "before long" is from 1520s.

    The phrase "one by one" is still used in modern English. The article at the website discusses various uses and meaning of by back in those days:

    by | Origin and meaning of by by Online Etymology Dictionary
    Click to expand...
    :rolleyes: thanks!
     
    Phrase by and by (early 14c.) originally meant "one by one," with by apparently denoting succession; modern sense of "before long" is from 1520s.

    I still can't fathom how it came to mean 'before long' ... :( it is a bit foggy in my mind ^^

    it ''should'' almost suggest a long time .. since it came from one by one sense ... sounds like an undetermined length of time though .. am I too off the course? :oops::confused:
     
    Yes, there is the old hymn talking about heaven: 'In the sweet by and by, we shall meet on that beautiful shore' (In the Sweet By-and-By - Wikipedia), where I understand it to mean, as doji said, an undetermined length of time. (Interestingly, it is used as a noun in the hymn.)

    The OED gives the original meanings as being obsolete:
    A. adv.
    †1. Of a succession of (persons or things): One by one, one after another, in order ...
    †2. On and on, continuously. Obsolete...
    †3. Of sequence of events: straightway, immediately, directly, at once. Obsolete.
    Click to expand...
    And the current meaning is a development of the original meanings.
    4. [With the same development of sense as in anon, presently, and French bientôt] : Before long, presently, soon, shortly. (The usual current sense; in U.S. vulgarly by'm-by.)
    Click to expand...

    Hence: 'a succession', leading to 'immediately', leading to 'soon', leading to 'eventually'.
     
    natkretep said:
    Yes, there is the old hymn talking about heaven: 'In the sweet by and by, we shall meet on that beautiful shore' (In the Sweet By-and-By - Wikipedia), where I understand it to mean, as doji said, an undetermined length of time. (Interestingly, it is used as a noun in the hymn.)

    The OED gives the original meanings as being obsolete:

    And the current meaning is a development of the original meanings.


    Hence: 'a succession', leading to 'immediately', leading to 'soon', leading to 'eventually'.
    Click to expand...
    Cool! thanks :D
     
    The OED gives clues as to "by and by" = in due course; eventually, etc.

    By is a very old word, first recorded in Old English in the late 9th century. It occurs as a conjunction, preposition, adverb, verb and noun.
    General scheme of signification. I. Of position in space: (1) Position or action near, including notions of comparison by juxtaposition; (2) Direction and vague localization. II. Of motion in space: (1) Motion alongside, along, or over a course; (2) Motion up to; (3) Motion alongside and beyond, including notions of distance to reach, and of excess, short-coming, or inferiority. III. Of time. IV. Of mental or ideal proximity. V. Of medium, means, instrumentality, agency. VI. Of circumstance, condition, manner, cause. VII. In phrases.
    Click to expand...

    We have:
    †III.19.a.
    In the course of, at, in, on (the time or date of an action or event).     Obsolete

    OE Sy ælc heorðpening agyfen be Petres mæssedæg. Laws of Eadgar vol. I. 4 (Mätz.)
    1797 Where he used to wander many a morning by sun-rise, and many an evening by moonlight. Philanthrope No. 23. 177
    Click to expand...

    and we have

    IV.i.23.
    According to, in accordance with, in conformity or harmony with:

    1. IV.i.23.a. A command, law, rule, will, or any standard of action. So in phrases by book, †by course (= in turn), by heart, by rote, by row (= in order).
    OE Se Birinus com þider be Honorius wordum. Anglo-Saxon Chronicle (Laud MS.) Anno 634
    1884 We judge a stranger by our home-bred ways. W. C. Smith, Kildrostan 46
    Click to expand...
    So we have by and by as meaning either
    eventually [and] eventually -> reduplication of the first meaning for emphasis
    or, by combination of the two meanings
    eventually and in accordance with experience/rules/expectations, etc.

    Both of these meanings fit the current meaning.
     
    PaulQ said:
    The OED gives clues as to "by and by" = in due course; eventually, etc.

    By is a very old word, first recorded in Old English in the late 9th century. It occurs as a conjunction, preposition, adverb, verb and noun.


    We have:


    and we have


    So we have by and by as meaning either
    eventually [and] eventually -> reduplication of the first meaning for emphasis
    or, by combination of the two meanings
    eventually and in accordance with experience/rules/expectations, etc.

    Both of these meanings fit the current meaning.
    Click to expand...
    I'm still not much wiser. In dictionaries I find that "by and by" can mean, approximately: 1. From time to time, and 2. Soon. As I have asked, by which logic "from time to time" could have become "soon"?
     
    akiprev said:
    I'm still not much wiser. In dictionaries I find that "by and by" can mean, approximately: 1. From time to time, and 2. Soon. As I have asked, by which logic "from time to time" could have become "soon"?
    Click to expand...
    Context ;)
    Edit: That's the problem with dictionaries. They don't have space to delve into relating each definition into an appropriate context.
     
    akiprev said:
    In dictionaries I find that "by and by" can mean, approximately: 1. From time to time, and 2. Soon.
    Click to expand...
    Where did you see someone say it means "from time to time"? I don't think that is correct.

    "From time to time" means "repeatedly -- but there is time between the repeats".
    I don't think "by and by" ever means "repeatedly".
     
    dojibear said:
    Where did you see someone say it means "from time to time"? I don't think that is correct.

    "From time to time" means "repeatedly -- but there is time between the repeats".
    I don't think "by and by" ever means "repeatedly".
    Click to expand...
    sdgraham said:
    Context ;)
    Edit: That's the problem with dictionaries. They don't have space to delve into relating each definition into an appropriate context.
    Click to expand...
    For example, in the book Anacalypsis (xix c), it's often said, "I'll deal with it by and by." Soon or repeatedly (or from time to time or whatever)?
    But anyway, I can grasp how it came that such different notions could have proceeded from each other. If something was done repeatedly, how it could mean soon? Quite different notions.
     
    akiprev said:
    For example, in the book Anacalypsis (xix c), it's often said, "I'll deal with it by and by." Soon or repeatedly (or from time to time or whatever)?
    But anyway, I can grasp how it came that such different notions could have proceeded from each other. If something was done repeatedly, how it could mean soon? Quite different notions.
    Click to expand...
    The dictionary definitions are interesting. I don't think I ever use "by and by" to mean soon; I use it to mean after a while.
     
    akiprev said:
    In dictionaries I find that "by and by" can mean, approximately: 1. From time to time, and 2. Soon.
    Click to expand...

    :confused:

    I don't think it means either of those things.

    Like everyone else here, I understand 'by and by' to mean 'in a while' or 'eventually', 'in due course' and so on. It doesn't mean 'soon' and it definitely doesn't mean 'from time to time' or 'repeatedly'.

    Where exactly did you find these misleading definitions? Which dictionary?
     
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    Even merrier than I thought. That meaning "eventually" I found nowhere. And still don't see connection between the three notions, how that expression can have all three meanings - repeatedly, soon and eventually. There must be some reasons behind.
     
    akiprev said:
    Even merrier than I thought. That meaning "eventually" I found nowhere. And still don't see connection between the three notions, how that expression can have all three meanings - repeatedly, soon and eventually. There must be some reasons behind.
    Click to expand...
    The OED describes the "repeatedly" meaning as obsolete.

    I think it's quite easy to see how a meaning "soon" could be attenuated over time to mean "in a while".


    cidertree said:
    You haven't told us where you found it defined as meaning 'repeatedly'/'from time to time'.
    Click to expand...
    :thumbsup:

    ----------
    * Incidentally, it seems that the OED hasn't been updated since the first edition. That might explain the lack of an explicit "in a while" definition (although it does have presently).
     
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    akiprev said:
    There must be some reasons behind.
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    That is not true. Languages don't work that way. People have "reasons" for their actions. But no one person made the change, so no one person had a "reason" for making the change. That did not happen.

    Instead it was a gradual change, over hundreds of years, by thousands of speakers. Along the way, the phrase probably was used with 20 other meanings. But those meanings stayed local, or only lasted a few years.

    Every year, thousands of new phrases (or new meanings for existing phrases) come into existence. Some of these "slang" meanings stay local (one school or one town). Some become regional or even national. They are called "slang" unless the last long enough, or become common enough. Then they are added to dictionaries as new words or new meanings.
     
    Loob said:
    Are you saying you found the "repeatedly" meaning in the (big) OED? If so, then you'll also have seen that that meaning was obsolete.:confused:
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    I sometimes work for with very old books, like presently.
    Moreover, I still don't see by which logic it came to mean "soon" or, another paradox, "eventually".
     
    akiprev said:
    I sometimes work for with very old books, like presently.
    Moreover, I still don't see by which logic it came to mean "soon" or, another paradox, "eventually".
    Click to expand...
    First off, it doesn't need logic. People use language and it evolves. That's all the logic you need, there. The slimmest of variations can take root and grow.

    What anyone means by an expression of TIME depends on context. e.g. I will go cycling later. Does that "later" mean after typing this (shortly) or after I finish all my chores (possibly never). Who knows!
     
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