Es wird dir kein Mann, der auf dem Thron Israels sitzt, vor mir weggeschnitten werden.

Ali Smith

Senior Member
Urdu - Pakistan
Guten Tag!

What does dir in the following mean?

Es wird dir kein Mann, der auf dem Thron Israels sitzt, vor mir weggeschnitten werden.
(Könige 8, 25)

My translation: No man who sits on the throne of Israel will be cut away from me.

I'm not so interested in what the original Hebrew means as I am in what this particular German translation means to native speakers of German who do not have access to the original Hebrew.

Vielen Dank!
 
  • manfy

    Senior Member
    German - Austria
    Es wird dir kein Mann, der auf dem Thron Israels sitzt, vor mir weggeschnitten werden.
    (Könige 8, 25)

    My translation: No man who sits on the throne of Israel will be cut away from me.
    I think 'dir' is ethical dative; it marks the person for whose sake something is done or not done.
    I'm not totally sure what "vor mir weggeschnitten" really means. It's not really "from me", which would be "von mir".
     

    Ali Smith

    Senior Member
    Urdu - Pakistan
    Thanks! So, how would you convey the meaning of dir when translating into English? Let me take another stab at it:

    Es wird dir kein Mann, der auf dem Thron Israels sitzt, vor mir weggeschnitten werden.
    (Könige 8, 25)

    My translation: For your sake, no man who sits on the throne of Israel will be cut away in front of me.
     

    manfy

    Senior Member
    German - Austria
    My translation: For your sake, no man who sits on the throne of Israel will be cut away in front of me.
    I probably wouldn't translate it at all; I'd just drop it. Ethical dative in English is rare - except for some dialects. And because of that dialectal use, ethical dative often sounds colloquial in modern English.
    Even in German, 'dir' is not absolutely necessary.
    "Es wird kein Mann, der auf dem Thron Israels sitzt, vor mir weggeschnitten werden." has practically the same meaning. "Es wird dir kein Mann..." just sounds a bit more emphatic and in many cases, ethical dative is still idiomatic in German.

    I still don't completely understand "vor mir weggeschnitten", but I'll have to leave that to other members.
     

    bearded

    Senior Member
    Bei ''Könige 8.25'' scheint der Text eigentlich etwas anders zu lauten / Apparently, the text in ''Könige 8.25 reads differently:
    • 1. Könige 8:25

      Jahwe, Gott Israels, nun erfülle auch die andere Zusage, die du meinem Vater David gegeben hast, als du sagtest: 'Es soll dir nie an einem Mann fehlen, der vor mir auf dem Thron Israels sitzt, wenn nur deine Söhne darauf achten, so nach meinen Weisungen zu leben, wie du das getan hast.'
     
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    Thersites

    Senior Member
    Swiss German - Switzerland
    Bei ''Könige 8.25'' scheint der Text aber etwas anders zu lauten / Apparently, the text in ''Könige 8.25 reads differently:
    It will be a little different in every translation. There are different philosophies among bible translators.
     

    manfy

    Senior Member
    German - Austria
    Sure, but the presence of 'dir' does really make sense in my quotation. Maybe it has remained in the OP text owing to some mistake/confusion...? Same thing for 'vor mir'...
    :thumbsup: Agreed! In your version dir and vor mir make perfect sense, even without surrounding context. "Dir" can be interpreted as a normal indirect object, I think.
     

    manfy

    Senior Member
    German - Austria
    Mein Kanarienvogel ist mir gestorben.
    Nope, I have to disagree!
    Your sentence uses a true ethical dative because 'sterben' doesn't take an indirect object.
    With 'fehlen' that's different:
    Etwas fehlt. ≠ Jemandem fehlt etwas.
    The optional indirect object 'jemandem' specifies the recipient of the verb 'fehlen' and that's what creates a clear semantic difference to 'etwas fehlt'.
    Of course, a real indirect object is usually also the beneficiary of the action, so it may be mistaken as dativus ethicus.

    [crossposted and agreeing!]
     

    JClaudeK

    Senior Member
    Français France, Deutsch (SW-Dtl.)
    Das OP-Zitat könnte "zusammengeflickt" sein aus "Könige 8, 25" und Folgendem:
    Screenshot 2021-07-30 at 15-29-06  vor mir weggeschnitten werden - Recherche Google.png

    Mein Geschlecht wird abgetragen, zugerollt vor mir, wie ein Nomadenzelt : abgeschnitten wie einem Weber wird mein Leben, mitten im Weben schneidet man mich ab , in Tagesfrist macht man es gar mit mir .
     

    Thersites

    Senior Member
    Swiss German - Switzerland
    Es wird dir kein Mann, der auf dem Thron Israels sitzt, vor mir weggeschnitten werden.
    I'm not so interested in what the original Hebrew means as I am in what this particular German translation means to native speakers of German who do not have access to the original Hebrew.
    If I did not know that the sentence was from the bible, it would be unintelligible. Weggeschnitten makes no sense at all in this sentence.

    As for the dir in particular, that I would take to mean "to you". In this context: It will "to you" not be done / happen that ...

    I am interested: What is all this for?
     

    Schlabberlatz

    Senior Member
    German - Germany

    Schlabberlatz

    Senior Member
    German - Germany
    1 Kings 8:25 Interlinear: 'And now, Jehovah, God of Israel, keep for Thy servant David my father that which Thou spakest to him, saying, There is not cut off to thee a man from before Me, sitting on the throne of Israel -- only, if thy sons watch their way, to walk before Me as thou hast walked before Me.
    Well, it turns out that it can be found in the Literal Standard Version:
    1 Kings 8 Literal Standard Version
    and in Young's Literal Translation:
    1 Kings 8 YLT

    One more:
    ‘You will never
    לֹא־ (lō-)
    Adverb - Negative particle
    Strong's 3808: Not, no

    fail
    יִכָּרֵ֨ת
    (yik·kā·rêṯ)
    Verb - Nifal - Imperfect - third person masculine singular
    Strong's 3772: To cut, to destroy, consume, to covenant

    to have a man
    אִישׁ֙ (’îš)
    Noun - masculine singular
    Strong's 376: A man as an individual, a male person

    to sit
    יֹשֵׁ֖ב (yō·šêḇ)
    Verb - Qal - Participle - masculine singular
    Strong's 3427: To sit down, to dwell, to remain, to settle, to marry

    before Me
    מִלְּפָנַ֔י (mil·lə·p̄ā·nay)
    Preposition-m, Preposition-l | Noun - masculine plural construct | first person common singular
    Strong's 6440: The face


    1 Kings 8:25 Therefore now, O LORD, God of Israel, keep for Your servant, my father David, what You promised when You said: 'You will never fail to have a man to sit before Me on the throne of Israel, if only your descendants guard their way to walk before Me as you have done.'

    Edit:
    One more:
    25 Und nun, o Jehova, du Gott Israels, halte deinem Knecht David, meinem Vater, gegenüber das, was du ihm verheißen hast, indem [du] sprachst: ‚Es wird kein Mann der Deinen von [dem Platz] vor mir abgeschnitten werden, der auf dem Thron Israels sitze,70 wenn deine Söhne nur achtgeben auf ihren Weg, indem sie vor mir wandeln, so wie du vor mir gewandelt bist.‘
    1Kgs 8 – 1. Könige – Neue-Welt-Übersetzung der Heiligen Schrift (1989) [www.jw.org]
    Neue-Welt-Übersetzung von jw.org (Zeugen Jehovas)
     
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