Etymology: Earth

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Mac_Linguist1

Member
Macedonian, English
Just a quick note.

In Macedonian and I believe in other Slavic languages too, the plant is capitalized (Земја) as are all celestial bodies while the land surface is not (земја).
 
  • Lugubert

    Senior Member
    Please consider that the Latin words homo (man, human) and humus (soil, ground, earth) are really related. Perhaps, there could be some very old influence from Mesopotamia concerning the following idea:

    {Genesis 2:7} And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
    The Latin etc. h words do indeed seem to be related from a PIE *dhghem-.

    The Semitic root 'dm will provide material for dozens of dissertations. Chosing when to translate 'adam as the proper noun Adam or as 'humanity' or the like in the Old Testament is a science in itself.

    Also, was ancient Semitic dirt/dust/earth red? Ugaritic 'dm, Akkadian adamu etc. etc. also have meanings like red, dark red, blood.
     

    Spharadi

    Senior Member
    Spanish
    Hello
    I once read, but I cannot remember where, that aristo-cracy (the rule of the best ones) is related to earth in this way:
    "aristos" is Greek for "the best ones" but it allegedly comes from "ar" which means "earth". This would suggest that the "best ones" were the owners of the land. But again I'm not sure if this etymology is correct. Si non è vero è ben trovato...
     

    javier8907

    Senior Member
    Spanish - Spain
    "-istos" sounds to me, with no knowledge of Greek language, as a typical superlative suffix, on the pattern of English "-est".

    Anyway, I just wanted to add that the Basque word for both Earth and earth is "lur" (or "lurra/Lurra" with definite article), which doesn't resemble at all any of the other ones.
     

    Schrodinger's_Cat

    Senior Member
    American English
    I found that the term 'Earth' is the only planet whose name in English is not derived from Greco-Roman mythology.

    Why is that?

    In Latin = Terra Mater or Tellus.
    Both Terra Mater and Tellus Mater mean "Mother Earth"

    Why Terra was chosen instead of Tellus?

    And, in Italian, French and Spanish it's Terra, Terre and Tierra respectively

    I wonder why is it different for the English language?
     

    ajo fresco

    Senior Member
    It's because English is not a Latin language; it evolved from the Germanic family of languages, and the Germanic peoples already had their own word for "earth" long before they became part of the Roman Empire.

    You can see a quick etymology by clicking here.

    I hope this helps.
     

    berndf

    Moderator
    German (Germany)
    Other celestial bodies with Germanic names in English are Sun and Moon. If planents ever had Germanic names I don't know. But if so, they havn't survived. As far as I know all modern Germanic languages use the Latin names for planets. You have morning star and evening star as alternative names for venus. But these are not original Germanic names but just translations of Greek names.
     

    ahshav

    Senior Member
    English, Hebrew
    The Old High German word for earth (from the link to the dictionary) is erda - is so, then what is the origin of that? Is it related to a semitic word for earth (Hebrew - eretz ארץ, Arabic - ardd أرض or Aramaic ara3a)?
     

    Outsider

    Senior Member
    Portuguese (Portugal)
    You'll like this previous thread. :)

    Thanks, merged!
    sokol
     
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    Frank06

    Senior Member
    Nederlands / Dutch (Belgium)
    Hi,
    This sounds so close to 'zamin' (earth in Persian).
    As for Irish domhan, according to this source it's related to PIE *dheub- (see e.g. English deep).
    As far as I know there's a relation between 'th', 'z', and 'd' in IE languages.
    I fail to understand what you mean here.
    I have very strong doubts about zamin and domhan being cognates, but could you please describe and illustrate the alleged sound changes leading from PIE *dh- to Pahlavi (and Modern Persian) z- with relation to zamin زمین?

    Groetjes,

    Frank
     

    Lugubert

    Senior Member
    Hi,

    As for Irish domhan, according to this source it's related to PIE *dheub- (see e.g. English deep).

    I fail to understand what you mean here.
    I have very strong doubts about zamin and domhan being cognates, but could you please describe and illustrate the alleged sound changes leading from PIE *dh- to Pahlavi (and Modern Persian) z- with relation to zamin زمین?

    Groetjes,

    Frank
    According to Platts' Urdu etc. Dictionary, zamii, referenced from zamiin, was damii in Pahlavi, and is compared to Sanskrit jam. From this word, Monier Williams directs to Skt. ksham, and refers to Greek khthoon χθων, 'the ground, earth'. Those suggestions seem to be difficult to link to any PIE *dh.
     

    arsham

    Senior Member
    Persian
    According to Platts' Urdu etc. Dictionary, zamii, referenced from zamiin, was damii in Pahlavi, and is compared to Sanskrit jam. From this word, Monier Williams directs to Skt. ksham, and refers to Greek khthoon χθων, 'the ground, earth'. Those suggestions seem to be difficult to link to any PIE *dh.
    this etymology, at least as far as the Pahlavi form is concerned, is highly dubious (if not inaccurate). In Middle Persian, zameen was pronounced zamiig (hence early New Persian zamii and dialectal zemii/zamii). This word is also attested in Old Persian in the form of zam- (see Kent's Old Persian , Lexicon at the end of the book)
     

    tom_in_bahia

    Senior Member
    South Florida/Phoenix-Tucson/the Adirondacks. Native of North American English
    Well, the difference between erde/earth and terra could be one of metathesis over time since the "original" PIE continuum dialects, whereby the /t/ (or its voiced counterpart in German /d/ and interdental counterpart in English /theta/) moved from one side of the word to the other (which side it was originally on is open to debate, but according to etymonline, the PIE term *er/t would seem to show that the /t/ moved to the front from the back for terra. Two bad tape-recorders were only invented last century.

    This sounds so close to 'zamin' (earth in Persian). As far az I know there's a relation between 'th', 'z', and 'd' in IE languages.

    Well, technically, in any language those sounds could be considered "related". They are all coronal consonants and depending on whether the "'th'" you refer to is voiced, as in 'there', or unvoiced, as in 'think', they are all voiced. Another thing to note is that both /d/ and /z/ are alveolars; and, /d/ can have a dental production point, which would get it even closer to /edh/ (THere, THis, THough, etc.).

    In English you have wasn't /w^z*nt/ and the dialectal varient [w^dnt] (where arguably the /d/ is a /flap/ - which I have no way to write here - but either way, a flap/tap is formed in the same part of the mouth). Also, in some dialects of English this or that may be pronounced [dIs] or [daet] (where ae represents the vowel in American cat or bath).
     
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    89ten

    Member
    german
    If earth doesn’t have common root with Semitic erd then it must have easily traceable i.e. etymology, which doesn’t seem to bet the case. It's difficult to find a common root here and terra is not convincing enough.
    The other word cluster dhoman/zemo/hom fits the bill on the other hand. Perhaps going from terra via torp, torf- a piece of dry land in some Nordic languages and related words like dorf and then chop of the initial consonant can make the claim valid. I am not sure if both dorf and earth have the same etymological root. A derivative of earth is I believe as well in Hindu but its missing in most of satem region. It’s a close call I would say.
     
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    jonbho

    New Member
    Basque & Spanish
    "-istos" sounds to me, with no knowledge of Greek language, as a typical superlative suffix, on the pattern of English "-est".

    Anyway, I just wanted to add that the Basque word for both Earth and earth is "lur" (or "lurra/Lurra" with definite article), which doesn't resemble at all any of the other ones.
    That's true, but just today I found a curious coincidence (or not?): "bury" in basque is "ehortzi" (or "ehorz"). I realized this when reading some article about Old English that mentions that earth was "eorth" in OE.

    I haven't been able to find any etimology for "ehortz", but it would be awesome if it were either a common, really old ancestor, or a loanword from a germanic language.

    -- Jon
     

    dinji

    Senior Member
    Swedish - Finland
    Bulgarian: зем̀я (zemia)


    Yes. In Old Slavic, the consonant cluster *Cj, where C is among {b,p,v,m}, in the cases where j is also a consonant, tends to change to *CLj. L is an epenthetic consonant indeed. It has been dropped later in many Slavic dialects.

    The Slavic zemja/зем̀я (earth) is related to the Latin words humus and homo.

    Please consider that the Latin words homo (man, human) and humus (soil, ground, earth) are really related. Perhaps, there could be some very old influence from Mesopotamia concerning the following idea:

    {Genesis 2:7} And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
    You can learn some more regarding this root looking at the origin of the words Suomi 'Finnish/Finland" and Häme/Saame at this site: http://koti.welho.com/jschalin/lexiconie.htm
     

    dinji

    Senior Member
    Swedish - Finland
    In Hungarian (which is in the Ugrian branch of Finno-Ugrian group and mostly quite different from the languages in the other branch) it is: föld.

    I could imagine that the Finnish/Estonian maa could be connected to our mező (= field), but that is just a guess.

    The fact that in Arabic there is a similitude gave me the idea that the root may be somewhere in Sanskrit. As it is often the case with Indo-European languages. (That could also explain why in Celtic languages there is similarity and why in Latin languages there is a difference...)
    The Finnish/Estonian maa does not seem to have cognates in Hungarian although it has in Mari, Permic, Hanti and Mansi as well as in Samoyed. The oldest reconstruction is *mïxï, where ï stands for a back unrounded vowel and x stands for a "laryngeal" of unknown quality.
     

    ravivararo

    New Member
    Telugu
    The following are the corresponding words for Earth in Tamil, a Dravidian language.

    இரை irai , n.. Earth; பூமி.

    இளை iḷai, n. The earth; பூமி. ఇల [ ila ] ila. [Telugu] n. The earth. నేల.
    கு; ku, n. Earth; பூமி. (திவா.)

    கூ² kū , n. Earth

    கோ kō :. Earth; பூமி.

    சகத்து cakattu, Universe, world, earth; உலகம்.

    சகம்¹ cakam, n. Earth, world, universe; உலகம். (பிங்.)

    தரை tarai, n. 1. The earth; பூமி. தரையொடு திரிதல நலிதரு . . . சலதரன் (தேவா. 568, 2). 2. Soil, land, ground; நிலம். தரையில் விழுந்து பணிந்தனர் (கோயிற்பு. பதஞ்ச. 43).

    தலம் talam, n. 1. Place, site; இடம். (பிங்.) 2. Sacred place, shrine; க்ஷேத் திரம். பின்னரே தலத்தின் வீறும் (பிரமோத். பஞ்சா. 42). 3. Earth; land; பூமி. (பிங்.) 4. Worlds; உலகம். ஏழ்தல முருவ விடைந்து (திருவாச. 4, 7). 5. Region of the body, used in compounds like kai-t-talam, cevi-t-talam, etc.; உடலுறுப்பு. 6. Land

    தாலம் tālam,Earth; பூமி. தால முறைமையிற் பரிந்து காத்தான் (திருவாலவா. 36, 1). 2. World; உலகம். தாலம் பதினாலும் (அரிச். பு. நாட். 9).

    பாலம்¹ pālam,, n. Earth; பூமி. (பிங்.) பவப்பால மன்னவரை (உபதேசகா. சிவபுண் ணிய. 222).

    புடவி¹ puḍavi, n.[Telugu. puḍami, Kannada. poḍavi.] 1. Earth; பூமி. (திவா.) 2. World; உலகம். (திவா.) அதிர்வன புடவிக ளடை யவே (தக்கயாகப். 723).

    மா mā, Land, tract of land; நிலம். மருதமாவின் றலை யன (இரகு. நாட்டுப். 56).


     
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    berndf

    Moderator
    German (Germany)
    For the Semitic languages, the root is /-r-d(s), as far as I can tell (/ stands for an initial vowel:

    Arabic: أرض (arD)
    Hebrew: ארץ (arez)
    Hebrew א (Aleph) and Arabic أ (Alif with Hamza) are consonants (not vowels) standing for the glottal stop [ʔ]. The Arabic letter ض (ād) is believed to be derived from an emphatic sibilant *[(t)ɬ'] which in Hebrew merged with the emphatic "s" [s'] into צ (Tsadeh), written ץ in word-final position.

    Hence both words are obviously derived through regular sound shifts from the Proto-Semitic root consonants */ʔ-r-ɬ'/. Vowels are more difficult to reconstruct with any degree of confidence but the most likely phonemic reconstruction is */ʔaraɬ'/.
     
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    Frank06

    Senior Member
    Nederlands / Dutch (Belgium)
    Hi,
    The following are the corresponding words for Earth in Tamil, a Dravidian language.
    Can you please explain us in which way your list adds to the discussion? It's really not enough to post large chunks from dictionaries.

    Frank
     

    vatrahos

    Senior Member
    American English
    Hello
    I once read, but I cannot remember where, that aristo-cracy (the rule of the best ones) is related to earth in this way:
    "aristos" is Greek for "the best ones" but it allegedly comes from "ar" which means "earth". This would suggest that the "best ones" were the owners of the land. But again I'm not sure if this etymology is correct. Si non è vero è ben trovato...
    I've never heard this supposition before, nor do I know of any thema ar = earth. This is not to say that such a connection doesn't exist, but I've never met it, and my own inclinations are to remain highly suspicious.

    More commonly, we say that ἄριστος (aristos) develops from Ἄρης (Ares), the god of war, and metaphorically "war" itself. Thus, those on the battlefield who were "most warlike" were also the most "virtuous" or "good."

    The thema "Ar" in the name Ἄρης gave birth to ἀρετή (arete) -- which means "goodness" / "virtue." And, in turn, ἄριστος. I'm not actually sure which words preceded which, nor which directly spawned the next.

    All of these words, actually, come from the Indo-European thema "AR" which means "to fit; to match." Think of the verbs ἁρμόζω ("to fit; to be proper"), ἀρετῶ ("to be proper; to excell") or ἀραρίσκω ("to join together; to fasten"), whence the noun άρθρον ("joint; knuckle").

    So ἀριστος is the most fitting, the most proper, the most "virtuous." Nothing to do with the landed class, at least from an etymological standpoint.

    You can also find this thema in Latin. Think of artus (limb) or ars (craft; art).

    Sorry for this interjection; I realize that, ostensibly, it has little to do with the subject of the thread.


    Moderator note:
    No need to apologize. Whatever it takes to explain why you think that an explanation is wrong is on-topic.
     
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    Orion7

    Member
    Latvian
    Hi All
    Does anybody know the origin of the word "earth"?
    All Germanic forms for Earth are cognate to Latvian art 'to furrow' and ārdīt 'to toss/разорить' (cf. Afrikāns Ārde, German Erde, English Earth). So the first meaning of Earth was 'arable land' (Latv. aramzeme, Latin arvum, Alb arë, Mdl.Ir. ar).
    The other stem *zam-, *zem- from dhagham- '(for) burning' (Latvian dedzams, dedzināms; degt 'to burn', dakts 'wick, burner') and formerly meant 'burned out field, tillage', as in older times a tillage from trees was cleared by fire.
     

    Schrodinger's_Cat

    Senior Member
    American English
    Here are 2 questions:

    (1) How did Earth get its name?
    (2) What was it called before? What term did our ancestors use to describe it?

    Question #1: If you ask an astronomer, he or she will tell you that "All of the planets, except for Earth, were named after Greek and Roman gods and godesses. The name Earth is an English/German name which simply means the ground. It comes from the Old English words 'eor(th)e' and 'ertha'. In German it is 'erde'. The name Earth is at least 1000 years old."

    Source: http://coolcosmos.ipac.caltech.edu/cosmic_kids/AskKids/earthname.shtml

    How about question #2?

    Notice that in the bible it is stated, "God made the heavens and the earth..."
    He couldn't have said that.
     

    0m1

    Member
    Arabic - Lebanese / English
    I'm apologise for the fact that my first post indulges in a little bit of thread-necromancy, but I couldn't help myself! I also apologise if this has been discussed elsewhere, but it seems most relevant to this thread in particular).

    Say we trace both Arabic "Ard" and the various IE iterations such of "Earth" (OE "earde", Afrikaans "aarde" &c.) to their respective roots, something like PIE *er- and Proto-Semitic *a-r-ŝ. Now there's of course more than a reasonable chance that this is coincidence, but perhaps it is also indication of some borrowing at that stage?

    I suppose this alone is no reason to suggest such a link, but alongside other resemblances (not least *taur- / * θwr) some level of exchange would seem less counter-logical.

    I suppose this also hinges on whether these Proto-Semitic roots also trace back to Afro-Asiatic or not, which would indicate, if they don't, that PIE borrowing is the most logical alternative, and if they do that PIE then would have been the borrower (if any borrowing was done at all, of course)

    Oh and hi ;D
     

    tmax43

    New Member
    englis
    Earth: E.RI.DU in Akkadian (house in the faraway built), Erde in German, Erda in Old High German, Airtha in Gothic, Erthe in Middle English, and going back geographically in time, "Earth" was Aratha or Ereds in Aramaic, Erd, or Ertz in Kurdish, and Eretz in Hebrew.
    E.RI.DU ancient city built at the point where the Tigris and Euphrates dump into the Persian Gulf.
     

    0m1

    Member
    Arabic - Lebanese / English
    Yes, those are all variations, I believe, on either the Germanic or Semitic roots I outlined above! And I'm not entirely sure Akkadian E.RI.DU is particularly relevant if it only means house-on-the-etc or refers to the city, but I may be wrong..., it doesn't seem too implausible that it might be related to *a-r
     

    origumi

    Senior Member
    Hebrew
    As for Irish domhan, according to this source it's related to PIE *dheub- (see e.g. English deep).
    If so, and if one must propose a Semitic cognate to Irish domhan or even Persian zaman, this could be Hebrew Tehom (= abyss) / Ugaritic t.h.m / Akkadian tamto (the 3 are cognates of each other). I do not claim that the Semitic words are really cognates of the IE ones, but at least they are rather close by sound (in certain language phase) and meaning (3nd millenium BC?).
     

    mataripis

    Senior Member
    Tagalog: 1.) Earth= daigdig, may have the root word "DIG" meaning Firmness. expressed in Tindig(stand or stature) / sanglibutan , meaning one round or revolution/ kalupaan or lupa(Tirahan probably from word "Terra" of Latino)
     

    Abu Rashid

    Senior Member
    Australian English
    tmax43 said:
    Earth: E.RI.DU in Akkadian (house in the faraway built) ... "Earth" was Aratha or Ereds in Aramaic
    The Akkadian word doesn't seem related at all. As for the Aramaic, it is ara'. Arabic is the only Semitic language which retained a 'd' type sound for the last sound in the word for earth.
     

    berndf

    Moderator
    German (Germany)
    The Akkadian word doesn't seem related at all. As for the Aramaic, it is ara'.
    Exactly. I wonder where the claim "Earth" was Aratha or Ereds in Aramaic comes from. You find it on myriads of internet sites but they seem all to be copies of one another with no references anywhere.

    TArabic is the only Semitic language which retained a 'd' type sound for the last sound in the word for earth.
    I'd be cautions with the word "retained". This sounds as if it were a forgone conclusion that there is some kind of a common source ending in -d. So far, there is not much evidence for for this.
     

    ancalimon

    Senior Member
    Turkish
    Tagalog: 1.) Earth= daigdig, may have the root word "DIG" meaning Firmness. expressed in Tindig(stand or stature) / sanglibutan , meaning one round or revolution/ kalupaan or lupa(Tirahan probably from word "Terra" of Latino)
    DİK means "firm,erect,to set, to raise, to plant" in Turkish too. Dimdik means "in a standing position, rigid, bolt upright".

    Usage in sentence: Üzerinde yapılan bütün savaşlara rağmen, dünya dimdik ayakta : Even after all those wars that are wage upon it, the world is still firm, standing, rigid.

    Does sangli mean round?


    In modern Turkish the most used words are Dünya (from Arabic) and Yer Yüzü (face of ground)
     
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    Canbek

    Member
    Kurdish-Can't speakproperly-Turkish
    The word in Arabic is quite similar:
    أرض arD
    Hi,

    In Kurdish, "ard/erd" means soil,cultivable land..."ar/er" means " fit ; match "..." are/ere" means " yes"...And also " ard/ord" means " flour"...First I thought,
    like some few words in Kurdish, " ard/erd" must have been borrowed from Assyrian...But now I've come to a conclusion that the word "earth" might come from
    Kurdish...Unreal, incredible...From such a neglected and supressed language...
     

    tFighterPilot

    Senior Member
    Israel - Hebrew
    Hi,

    In Kurdish, "ard/erd" means soil,cultivable land..."ar/er" means " fit ; match "..." are/ere" means " yes"...And also " ard/ord" means " flour"...First I thought,
    like some few words in Kurdish, " ard/erd" must have been borrowed from Assyrian...But now I've come to a conclusion that the word "earth" might come from
    Kurdish...Unreal, incredible...From such a neglected and supressed language...
    They both came from proto Indo Aryan...
     

    fdb

    Senior Member
    French (France)
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    Abu Rashid

    Senior Member
    Australian English
    First I thought,
    like some few words in Kurdish, " ard/erd" must have been borrowed from Assyrian...
    If it came from Akkadian (I assume this is what you mean by Assyrian), then it would be more like ereṣetu, as Akkadian merged ḍ into ṣ.

    The fact it has a 'd' in Kurdish, indicates it's highly likely it came from Arabic, as Arabic is one of the few languages which uses a 'd' like sound for this word, most other Semitic languages have merged this phoneme with either ṣ or in the case of Aramaic ʕ.

    If you meant Aramaic when you said Assyrian then it would of course be arʕ instead of ard.
     

    Canbek

    Member
    Kurdish-Can't speakproperly-Turkish
    If it came from Akkadian (I assume this is what you mean by Assyrian), then it would be more like ereṣetu, as Akkadian merged ḍ into ṣ.

    The fact it has a 'd' in Kurdish, indicates it's highly likely it came from Arabic, as Arabic is one of the few languages which uses a 'd' like sound for this word, most other Semitic languages have merged this phoneme with either ṣ or in the case of Aramaic ʕ.

    If you meant Aramaic when you said Assyrian then it would of course be arʕ instead of ard.
    Hi,

    I'mnot an etymologist; even I know I'mnot capable of discussing these very important and pleasent subjects in English; however,
    I just want to learn...

    I don't think " erd" would be borrowed from Arabic to Kurdish...Geographically, had Kurdish borrowed this word from a language, Arabic would be unlikely...Akkadian/Assyrian or
    Aramaic would be the right answers...Or as been very closely related to Persian(Farsi) and Beloci, words used in these two languages would be the answer...But in both languages, there's no " ard/erd",but " zamin" used instead...This word also exists in Kurdish, in a close but different meaning...By the way, had Kurdish borrowed " ard/erd" from Arabic, it would have been " arz" rather than " Ard"..Because these " d" letters, somehow changes to " z" in Kurdish, if borrowed from Arabic...Such as " Ramadan" as " Ramazan"...And borrowed by Turkish from Kurdish this way too..." Ard" becomes "arz" and used in Turkish more likely borrowed from Armenian as earth...

    There is another word " or/ar" which is "fire" in Kurdish...Erd/ard and or/ar suggests me the Ezdi Kurdish people as the source of this word...Earth and fire , quiet interesting...
     
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    Abu Rashid

    Senior Member
    Australian English
    I don't think " erd" would be borrowed from Arabic to Kurdish...Geographically, had Kurdish borrowed this word from a language, Arabic would be unlikely...Akkadian/Assyrian or Aramaic would be the right answers...
    As has been mentioned, in these languages the word is ereṣetu and arʕ respectively, so I very much doubt either contributed to Kurdish the word ard. And I can't for the life of me understand why you perceive either of these two languages to be more likely candidates for a source language, Arabic has had far more influence over the region Kurdish has been spoken in than either of these two for the entire time Kurdish has been attested as a language.

    By the way, had Kurdish borrowed " ard/erd" from Arabic, it would have been " arz" rather than " Ard"..Because these " d" letters, somehow changes to " z" in Kurdish, if borrowed from Arabic...Such as " Ramadan" as " Ramazan"...And borrowed by Turkish from Kurdish this way too..." Ard" becomes "arz" and used in Turkish more likely borrowed from Armenian as earth...
    From what I understand, the way in which letters such as ض are pronounced in Kurdish depends heavily upon the individual community. I am unsure on this though, but judging by the way other languages borrowed Arabic words with ض in them, it seems to be fairly inconsistently.

    Even in Turkish, which you've used there as your proof, ض is sometimes spelled as 'd'. eg. Ottoman Turkish: عضله = adele
     

    Canbek

    Member
    Kurdish-Can't speakproperly-Turkish
    As has been mentioned, in these languages the word is ereṣetu and arʕ respectively, so I very much doubt either contributed to Kurdish the word ard. And I can't for the life of me understand why you perceive either of these two languages to be more likely candidates for a source language, Arabic has had far more influence over the region Kurdish has been spoken in than either of these two for the entire time Kurdish has been attested as a language.



    From what I understand, the way in which letters such as ض are pronounced in Kurdish depends heavily upon the individual community. I am unsure on this though, but judging by the way other languages borrowed Arabic words with ض in them, it seems to be fairly inconsistently.

    Even in Turkish, which you've used there as your proof, ض is sometimes spelled as 'd'. eg. Ottoman Turkish: عضله = adele
    Historically, what you claim about the influence of Arabic on Kurdish, is just a speculation I'm afraid...Arabics' influence is not beyond the Islamic terms, as it's been in Indonesia, that's it for Kurdish...Arabic, considering the language, culture etc has got more influence on Persians, Turks( who calls themselves as Turk) more than on Kurdish in Turkey...Besides, until 1915 a large chunk of Kurdish population in now Turkey, were not Muslims...This is a different story...Kurdish has similar roots with Persian/Luri/Beloci/Pasto/Taciki( this is sort of persian though)...However, Mesopotamia , which is a Kurdish settlement, as well as Armenian and a part of Assyrian/Akkadians, is a different story to the rest of the Ariani- Indo European peoples...Islam has been introduced to Mesopotamia, 1300-1400 years ago; and obviously Kurds were using the words " ar/are/ard/erd/or... etc" in their daily life, before the Emevi Arabic/Islamic invasion...Why wouldn't you consider that Arabics borrowed this word from Kurds ? Probably you should let us know, what does " fire" mean in Arabic ?
    In Kurdish it's " or"...Are/ere is " yes, true"..."Ar/er is " fit, match up "...Ard is " flour, food"...And finally " erd " is " earth"..They are all related to each other...
     

    fdb

    Senior Member
    French (France)
    "...Are/ere is " yes, true"..."Ar/er is " fit, match up "...Ard is " flour, food"...And finally " erd " is " earth"..They are all related to each other...
    There is not much point in repeating the same thing even after it has been refuted.....
     

    tFighterPilot

    Senior Member
    Israel - Hebrew
    If you meant Aramaic when you said Assyrian then it would of course be arʕ instead of ard.
    That depends on the era in which it was borrowed (if it was). Early Aramaic had another phoneme with an unknown phonetic value. Since it burrowed the Phoenician alphabet which only had 22 letters, at first ק was used for this phoneme and in later ע. The two different spellings were even used in a single sentence in Jeremiah 10:11
    כִּדְנָה, תֵּאמְרוּן לְהוֹם, אֱלָהַיָּא, דִּי-שְׁמַיָּא וְאַרְקָא לָא עֲבַדוּ; יֵאבַדוּ מֵאַרְעָא וּמִן-תְּחוֹת שְׁמַיָּא, אֵלֶּה.

    Whatever the phoneme's phonetic value was, it's pretty clear it wasn't /ʕ/
     

    Abu Rashid

    Senior Member
    Australian English
    Historically, what you claim about the influence of Arabic on Kurdish, is just a speculation I'm afraid...
    What I'm afraid of, is that your argument is based on nothing more than some ultra-nationalistic mumbo-jumbo reactionary disdain for Arabic as a "colonising influence" on Kurdish.

    I wish you the best in sorting out your "issues". Good day.
     

    Abu Rashid

    Senior Member
    Australian English
    That depends on the era in which it was borrowed (if it was). Early Aramaic had another phoneme with an unknown phonetic value. Since it burrowed the Phoenician alphabet which only had 22 letters, at first ק was used for this phoneme and in later ע. The two different spellings were even used in a single sentence in Jeremiah 10:11
    כִּדְנָה, תֵּאמְרוּן לְהוֹם, אֱלָהַיָּא, דִּי-שְׁמַיָּא וְאַרְקָא לָא עֲבַדוּ; יֵאבַדוּ מֵאַרְעָא וּמִן-תְּחוֹת שְׁמַיָּא, אֵלֶּה.

    Whatever the phoneme's phonetic value was, it's pretty clear it wasn't /ʕ/
    Well aware, but still not anything approaching 'd'.
     

    Canbek

    Member
    Kurdish-Can't speakproperly-Turkish
    What I'm afraid of, is that your argument is based on nothing more than some ultra-nationalistic mumbo-jumbo reactionary disdain for Arabic as a "colonising influence" on Kurdish.

    I wish you the best in sorting out your "issues". Good day.


    Woow,

    What a responde ; " colonising influence...!" Don't worry, there's no such an influence and no one argues about it... You figure out where " ard" comes from,
    I'm done and very happy of the outcome.
     

    Abu Rashid

    Senior Member
    Australian English
    You figure out where " ard" comes from,
    I'm done and very happy of the outcome.
    I think anyone who is approaching this even semi-rationally will assume it is Arabic. I guess there's always the possibility of it deriving from the Indo-European root that earth derives from.

    But Akkadian & Aramaic are certainly not even remotely on the table.
     

    Ihsiin

    Senior Member
    English
    Islam has been introduced to Mesopotamia, 1300-1400 years ago; and obviously Kurds were using the words " ar/are/ard/erd/or... etc" in their daily life, before the Emevi Arabic/Islamic invasion...Why wouldn't you consider that Arabics borrowed this word from Kurds ?
    Arabic was a dominant language in Mesopotamia (or, let's call it Iraq), centuries before Islam.
    The word can't have been borrowed from Kurdish into Arabic because there are clear cognates in Hebrew, Aramaic, etc., demonstrating that the word "ardh" is clearly Semitic origin.
     
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