Etymology: Earth

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Canbek

Member
Kurdish-Can't speakproperly-Turkish
Arabic was a dominant language in Mesopotamia (or, let's call it Iraq), centuries before Islam.
The word can't have been borrowed from Kurdish into Arabic because there are clear cognates in Hebrew, Aramaic, etc., demonstrating that the word "ardh" is clearly Semitic origin.
Hi,

Mesopotamia is a Greek word and means " place betwen two rivers"...Tigris and Eouphrates rivers...These two words also is Greek...But I'm sure Tigris( which means tiger in Greek) comes from Armenian word Tigra...And eouphrades comes from Armenian Ophrat or Kurdish Ferat...There's been no
Arabic in these places at all ...Mountains are " Nemrud, Judi,Artos, Agri..and so on" No Arabic at all...Some cities are " Hakkari, Mardin, Midyat, Derik, Van,Zaxo,Colemerik,Urfa, Bidlis..so on" No Arabic at all...By the way, Mesopotamia doesnot include any historic Arabic land...For example Basra is not in Mesopotamia...Damascus (historically has got nothing to do with Arabs) is not in Mesopotamia..Even Baghdat is not connected to those places historically...Earth has a clear connection with " erde " in German and so with " erd" Kurdish...I showed quiet strong clues related to this word in Kurdish...Or( fire- food) Ar/er( fit; match up),Ard( flour) and Erd= Earth...I suggest you guys to show us related words from Arabic to your so called proof " Arddh" ; probably we'll learn all together...Mean time, before Arabs merged to historical grounds, Assyrians were in Mesopotamia and now in Syria, Iraq, Palestine...Even Jesus spoke Assyrian...The word Allah is Assyrian....So what you claim is totally wrong..There was no Arabic in Mesopotamia ( between two rivers) at all, before Islam...
 
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  • Ihsiin

    Senior Member
    English
    Oh, where to begin.
    I'll try to keep my reply linguistically focused.

    Yes, the word Mesopotamia is Greek for "between two rivers", but what of it? We use the word Mesopotamia in English for ancient Iraq, but in Arabic we would say "bilad al-raafidain" (country of two rivers). The names we use depend on the language we're speaking. According to Wikipedia, both the names Tigris and Euphrates can be traced back to Elamite and Akkadian names, and Tigris back to Sumerian (Euphrates probably also has a Sumerian root which we don't know).
    I'm not quite sure what you mean by "Mesopotamia does not include any historic Arabic land", Baghdad and Basra are certainly in the area that we refer to as Mesopotamia. Perhaps you mean that they aren't Ancient, 2,000 year-old cities, but what has that to do with it? Jesus spoke Aramaic, not Akkadian, the language of Assyria (even when Aramaic was the dominant language in the Middle-East, I believe it was never more than on equal terms with Akkadian in the Assyrian/Babylonian empires; linguistic historians corrects me if I'm wrong). The word Allah is Arabic.

    What, I claim, however, is correct. Arabic was a dominant language in Iraq before Islam. The Persians, when they conquered it as part of their empire, called it Arabistan- land of the Arabs. The Arabic city of Hira (next to modern Najaf) was founded in the 2nd Century AD (I believe).

    Back to "erd" and "ardh".
    The Arabic word "ارض" was a relation in Hebrew: "ארצ" and in Aramaic: "ארע". The words differ in the way we'd expect them to if they descended from a common ancestor, so we can safely say that they are native words and not imported.
    It's possible that the Kurdish word "erd" is related to the English word "earth". I really have far to few expertise to make a judgement, though I get the feeling that it's imported from Arabic.
    What I CAN say for sure is that Arabic "ardh" does NOT come from Kurdish "erd", and that Arabic was NOT brought to Iraq with Islam.
     
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    Canbek

    Member
    Kurdish-Can't speakproperly-Turkish
    Oh, where to begin.
    I'll try to keep my reply linguistically focused.

    Yes, the word Mesopotamia is Greek for "between two rivers", but what of it? We use the word Mesopotamia in English for ancient Iraq, but in Arabic we would say "bilad al-raafidain" (country of two rivers). The names we use depend on the language we're speaking. According to Wikipedia, both the names Tigris and Euphrates can be traced back to Elamite and Akkadian names, and Tigris back to Sumerian (Euphrates probably also has a Sumerian root which we don't know).
    I'm not quite sure what you mean by "Mesopotamia does not include any historic Arabic land", Baghdad and Basra are certainly in the area that we refer to as Mesopotamia. Perhaps you mean that they aren't Ancient, 2,000 year-old cities, but what has that to do with it? Jesus spoke Aramaic, not Akkadian, the language of Assyria (even when Aramaic was the dominant language in the Middle-East, I believe it was never more than on equal terms with Akkadian in the Assyrian/Babylonian empires; linguistic historians corrects me if I'm wrong). The word Allah is Arabic.

    What, I claim, however, is correct. Arabic was a dominant language in Iraq before Islam. The Persians, when they conquered it as part of their empire, called it Arabistan- land of the Arabs. The Arabic city of Hira (next to modern Najaf) was founded in the 2nd Century AD (I believe).

    Back to "erd" and "ardh".
    The Arabic word "ارض" was a relation in Hebrew: "ארצ" and in Aramaic: "ארע". The words differ in the way we'd expect them to if they descended from a common ancestor, so we can safely say that they are native words and not imported.
    It's possible that the Kurdish word "erd" is related to the English word "earth". I really have far to few expertise to make a judgement, though I get the feeling that it's imported from Arabic.
    What I CAN say for sure is that Arabic "ardh" does NOT come from Kurdish "erd", and that Arabic was NOT brought to Iraq with Islam.
    Well, you stick to your beliefs...Word Allah is Assyrian...Arabic has got nothing to do with Northern Mesopotamia before Islam...There's no towns founded by Arabics,after or before islam, there is no river, mountain, hill named Arabic...There's no food named in Arabic or invented, brought by Arabic...There is no " ancient Iraq" as a whole. Parts of this state, historically-culturelly-ethnically not connected to each other...Geographically either...Necef has got nothing to do with the mountainous area stretching from Mt.Agri( Urartu, Ararat- this word is a version of Urartu and named by Assyrians) down south to Zaxo, now in Iraq republic...What I CAN say for sure is that " erd" has got nothing to do with Arabic...By the way, Kurdish Jews had no reason and relation to borrow " Erd" from Arabic...They would instead borrow the Hebrew or Assyrian version, had they borrowed from a semitic language...Jesus spoke Assyrian which is regarded as the continuation of Aramaic..

    Germanic " erde" matchs up with Kurdish "Erd"...Many words related to Erd do exist in Kurdish, I provided to you guys allready...
     

    berndf

    Moderator
    German (Germany)
    Word Allah is Assyrian...
    This is nonsense and you know it. Allah < Al Ilah simply meas "the diety". Finding cognates in other Semitic languages is hardly surprising and it doesn't make Allah any less Arabic. Besides, the question is off-topic here.
    Germanic " erde" matchs up with Kurdish "Erd"...Many words related to Erd do exist in Kurdish, I provided to you guys allready...
    They are possibly cognates. But that they "match" does not prove anything.
     
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    Abu Rashid

    Senior Member
    Australian English
    Mesopotamia is a Greek word and means " place betwen two rivers"...Tigris and Eouphrates rivers...These two words also is Greek...But I'm sure Tigris( which means tiger in Greek) comes from Armenian word Tigra...And eouphrades comes from Armenian Ophrat or Kurdish Ferat...
    The river was known in Akkadian as Purrat (and is still known as Furrat in Arabic till this day) long before the Greeks were even heard of.

    The Kurdish Ferat is probably a borrowing from this Arabic rendering.

    Ditto for Dijlah (the Arabic name for the Tigris).

    So both these rivers' names clearly show an Arabic -> Kurdish borrowing.

    Honestly, I'm stumbling to understand why you are so ashamed of having Arabic influence on your language... I get that you think it harms your nationalist struggle or something, but really come on, we're all adults here, discussing language, objectively. Please try to leave such petty nationalist disputes aside.
     

    fdb

    Senior Member
    French (France)
    Why do you think so? Because of the ending -d rather than -t, as we find it in Middle Iranian (source)?
    The entry for “earth” in this “Online Etymological Dictioanary” reads:

    “O.E. eorþe "ground, soil, dry land," also used (along with middangeard) for "the (material) world" (as opposed to the heavens or the underworld), from P.Gmc. *ertho (cf. O.Fris. erthe "earth," O.S. ertha, O.N. jörð, M.Du. eerde, Du. aarde, O.H.G. erda, Ger. Erde, Goth. airþa), from PIE root *er- (2) "earth, ground" (cf. M.Ir. -ert "earth"). The earth considered as a planet was so called from c.1400.”

    M.Ir. = Middle Irish. Not Middle Iranian.
    This root does not have any cognates in Indo-Aryan or Iranian.

    By the way: I fail to see the etymological relevance of the last sentence (the Earth considered as a planet....). The Earth was of course considered a planet only after Copernicus (died 1543).
     

    berndf

    Moderator
    German (Germany)
    M.Ir. = Middle Irish. Not Middle Iranian.
    Ooops, that explains it. :)
    I fail to see the etymological relevance of the last sentence (the Earth considered as a planet....).
    The dictionary lists the etymologies by meaning. And the meaning "earth" as a planet first occurred in the early 15th century. The term "planet" should be understood to mean "celestial body". Of course earth was not considered a planet by 1400, actually also not when Copernicus died. The view of "earth" as a planet gained ground only in the second half of the 17th century.
     

    Melaike

    Member
    Turkish
    Hi,

    This word also exists in Kurdish, in a close but different meaning...By the way, had Kurdish borrowed " ard/erd" from Arabic, it would have been " arz" rather than " Ard"..Because these " d" letters, somehow changes to " z" in Kurdish, if borrowed from Arabic...Such as " Ramadan" as " Ramazan"...And borrowed by Turkish from Kurdish this way too..." Ard" becomes "arz" and used in Turkish more likely borrowed from Armenian as earth...
    Turkish words that are used in islamic literature are either from Persian or Arabic.Also we Turks tend to pronounce the Arabic ''dh'' sound as ''z''.
     

    berndf

    Moderator
    German (Germany)
    Back to "erd" and "ardh".
    The Arabic word "ارض" was a relation in Hebrew: "ארצ" and in Aramaic: "ארע". The words differ in the way we'd expect them to if they descended from a common ancestor...
    Why? Proto-Semitic *ṣ́ > ض in Arabic, *ṣ́ > צ in Hebrew and *ṣ́ > ק or ע in Aramaic is precisely what you expect.
    ..., so we can safely say that they are native words and not imported.
    ... or loaned at a very early stage when *ṣ́ still existed as separate and identically pronounced phonemes in all three languages or their predecessors.
     
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    Ihsiin

    Senior Member
    English
    Why? Proto-Semitic *ṣ́ > ض in Arabic, *ṣ́ > צ in Hebrew and *ṣ́ > ק or ע in Aramaic is precisely what you expect.
    Exactly, that's what I was saying (that "was" should have been a "has"- excuse my dyslexia).

    ... or loaned at a very early stage when *ṣ́ still existed as separate and identically pronounced phonemes in all three languages or their predecessors.
    True. It would still preclude a Kurdish import.
    (In fact, come to think of it, a simple consideration of the occurrence of the letter dhad in the Arabic would rule out a Kurdish origin.)
     

    berndf

    Moderator
    German (Germany)
    Exactly, that's what I was saying (that "was" should have been a "has"- excuse my dyslexia).
    Sorry, I misunderstood you.
    True. It would still preclude a Kurdish import.
    (In fact, come to think of it, a simple consideration of the occurrence of the letter dhad in the Arabic would rule out a Kurdish origin.)
    Sure by giving these conditions I wanted to demonstrate how unlikely this should be.;)
     

    Canbek

    Member
    Kurdish-Can't speakproperly-Turkish
    This is nonsense and you know it. Allah < Al Ilah simply meas "the diety". Finding cognates in other Semitic languages is hardly surprising and it doesn't make Allah any less Arabic. Besides, the question is off-topic here.
    They are possibly cognates. But that they "match" does not prove anything.
    Hi,

    There's been quiet interesting developments in the forum; I'm an old man, gone go to bed soon, however, you deserve a quick responde, for the others, some other day hopefully...

    The non sense you are talking about was an absolute non sense for me too, until 12 years ago..Thanks to Internet era, we are learning ( if we want to)...Assyrian and Aramaic is regarded as pretty much similar and Assyrian is the continuation of it.Plus, Assyrians claim that( and taken serious by a lot) they are the oldest people in Middle east...I'm not sure whether their claim extend to Northern Mesopotamia or not, but a part of this unlucky people has been there abouts for couple of- if not more- millenniums...

    <..Off-topic remarks removed..>

    By the way, I'm a bit confused about Indo-Aryan...What's Indo-Aryan ?

    The word " Ar" as a root of many words exist in Kurdish among the IE languages( may be in armenian too)...

    <..Off-topic remarks removed..>

    You or some one gotta show me , for example from Arabic Ardd, related words...I don't understand, why wouldn't no one do it( Arabic fellows)...Or Hebrew speaking, if there is any in this platform...I wish there was an Assyrian...

    <..Off-topic remarks removed..>

    Sorry for " off" topic, but probably we might need a flexible methodology while searching the roots of words, and it's hidden in history( you name it)

    Have fun and sorry for head ache.
     
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    berndf

    Moderator
    German (Germany)
    Assyrian and Aramaic is regarded as pretty much similar and Assyrian is the continuation of it.
    There is no language called "Assyrian". The term is sometimes used for:
    - The Assyrian dialect of Akkadian (an extinct language)
    - A variety of Modern Aramaic called "Assyrian Neo-Aramaic" (a living language).
    I guess you refer to the latter.
    Plus, Assyrians claim that( and taken serious by a lot) they are the oldest people in Middle east
    Many people claim a lot of rubbish. All Semitic languages derive from a common ancestor and are therefore of equal age. Asking if Aramaic is older or younger than Arabic is indeed nonsense.

    You can ask which is the old attested Semitic language, i.e. of which we have written documents; there the answer is: Akkadian. The oldest known written texts in Akkadian are about 4600 years old. The oldest Aramaic inscriptions are less than 3000 years old.

    There still is an older attested language in the Mesopotamian area but that is not Semitic: Sumerian. It actually doesn't belong to any know group.

    By the way, I'm a bit confused about Indo-Aryan...What's Indo-Aryan ?
    A group of Indo-European languages spoken on the Indian sub-continent. They are a sub-group of the Indo-Iranian languages, the group to which also Kurdish belongs.

    I wish there was an Assyrian...
    This has been told to you before:
    Back to "erd" and "ardh".The Arabic word "ارض" was a relation in Hebrew: "ארצ" and in Aramaic: "ארע". The words differ in the way we'd expect them to if they descended from a common ancestor, so we can safely say that they are native words and not imported.
    The Aramaic, Hebrew and Arabic words are exactly what you expect, if it is a native Semitic word inherited from Proto-Semitic. This pretty much excludes the possibility of the word being a loan from outside the Semitic group.
     
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    Canbek

    Member
    Kurdish-Can't speakproperly-Turkish
    There is no language called "Assyrian". The term is sometimes used for:
    - The Assyrian dialect of Akkadian (an extinct language)
    - A variety of Modern Aramaic called "Assyrian Neo-Aramaic" (a living language).
    I guess you refer to the latter.
    Many people claim a lot of rubbish. All Semitic languages derive from a common ancestor and are therefore of equal age. Asking if Aramaic is older or younger than Arabic is indeed nonsense.

    You can ask which is the old attested Semitic language, i.e. of which we have written documents; there the answer is: Akkadian. The oldest known written texts in Akkadian are about 4600 years old. The oldest Aramaic inscriptions are less than 3000 years old.

    There still is an older attested language in the Mesopotamian area but that is not Semitic: Sumerian. It actually doesn't belong to any know group.

    A group of Indo-European languages spoken on the Indian sub-continent. They are a sub-group of the Indo-Iranian languages, the group to which also Kurdish belongs.

    This has been told to you before:
    The Aramaic, Hebrew and Arabic words are exactly what you expect, if it is a native Semitic word inherited from Proto-Semitic. This pretty much excludes the possibility of the word being a loan from outside the Semitic group.
    Ok, I've come to a conclusion that "Erd" absolutly comes from Arabic...To argue otherwise, is a nationalistic hysteria, I admit( for the ones belong to Kurdish race especially)...There's no language called Assyrian...Understood...Tigris comes from Arabic...Ofcourse why the Euphrades wouldn't be under these circumstances !

    <..>
     
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    Abu Rashid

    Senior Member
    Australian English
    Ok, I've come to a conclusion that "Erd" absolutly comes from Arabic...To argue otherwise, is a nationalistic hysteria, I admit( for the ones belong to Kurdish race especially)...There's no language called Assyrian...Understood...Tigris comes from Arabic...Ofcourse why the Euphrades wouldn't be under these circumstances !

    <..>
    Nobody here said absolutely comes from Arabic (that I recall). And nobody ever said Tigris comes from Arabic either. In fact as I mentioned, Arabic uses the word dijlah (most likely Sumerian origin), not Tigris. I did however point out that Kurdish دیجلە (dîjle) is obviously borrowed from Arabic. In all other languages of the region, this word uses 'g', not 'j', only Arabic has shifted g -> j, exposing the path through which Kurdish acquired this word.
     

    Canbek

    Member
    Kurdish-Can't speakproperly-Turkish
    Nobody here said absolutely comes from Arabic (that I recall). And nobody ever said Tigris comes from Arabic either. In fact as I mentioned, Arabic uses the word dijlah (most likely Sumerian origin), not Tigris. I did however point out that Kurdish دیجلە (dîjle) is obviously borrowed from Arabic. In all other languages of the region, this word uses 'g', not 'j', only Arabic has shifted g -> j, exposing the path through which Kurdish acquired this word.
    Tigris is Median-Avestan...Kurdish it's " Tijr"...How come Kurdish should borrow " dijla"from Arabic ? The letter " j" exists in Kurdish in a form of most important word of this language as " jan" too( like many)Which means " life" and related to Avestan.You are making absurd comments about a language that you have no idea at all
    , for the sake of your nationalistic approach...You should clear your mind from ingrained nationalistic approach, full of humiliation towards a language( or people)...
     

    Abu Rashid

    Senior Member
    Australian English
    Tigris is Median-Avestan...Kurdish it's " Tijr"...How come Kurdish should borrow " dijla"from Arabic ? The letter " j" exists in Kurdish
    But that's the point. The word is not originally pronounced with a 'j' but with a 'g'. But as Arabic shifted g -> j, this word ended up as dijlah in Arabic. If Kurdish had borrowed this word from a language prior to Arabic's arrival, then it would be spelled with a 'g' not a 'j'. In Sumerian and Akkadian and Aramaic it is with a 'g'. This fact highlights the Arabic origin of the Kurdish borrowing. Don't be ashamed of it though, all languages borrow. You have many words in Kurdish from Arabic, although I suspect most of them you'd never admit.

    for the sake of your nationalistic approach...You should clear your mind from ingrained nationalistic approach, full of humiliation towards a language( or people)...
    Given that my nation is Australia, and Australia has little to do with the Middle East in any way, I think you're clutching at straws claiming I have a nationalistic approach to this. Although my name on this forum might be an Arabic name, I am not an Arab.
     

    Ihsiin

    Senior Member
    English
    The 'g' could have been palatalised in Kurdish independently; it's not an uncommon process. The "Tigr-" names come from Sumerian via Elamite, whereas the "Digla" names come via Akkadian ("Deqlat" in Akkadian, apparently).
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tigris#Etymology (Poorly referenced, but there you go).
    If the Kurdish name is "Tijr" (I've personally never heard it, but then pretty much all the Kurds I know are Kraad Feylia from the Baghdad area who all speak Arabic anyway) then that suggests a Persian origin, rather than an Arabic one.

    Who knows. "dh" for ض is a misleading transcription and that needed to be clarified.
    I transliterate ض as "dh" since that's how I pronounce it (emphatically, of course).
     

    Canbek

    Member
    Kurdish-Can't speakproperly-Turkish
    Why? Proto-Semitic *ṣ́ > ض in Arabic, *ṣ́ > צ in Hebrew and *ṣ́ > ק or ע in Aramaic is precisely what you expect.
    ... or loaned at a very early stage when *ṣ́ still existed as separate and identically pronounced phonemes in all three languages or their predecessors.
    Thousands of Arabic words, starting with "d", ends with "d", includes "d" in it, couple of it, do exist in Redhouse Turkish to English dictionary, in front of me now...no Arabic or Persian word, ends with "dh" "tends" to be "z" in Turkish, incorrect !

    The islamic religious words, for example Ramadan to RamaZan, comes from Persian( let's exlude Kurdish, exactly the same in this word), which is a borrow absolutely from Arabic...Also Namaz ( salah in Arabic ?) comes from Persian and It is a Persian word.
    ( mentioned in Avesta in this form- Kurdish is Nemah, mentioned in Avesta in this form)

    Let's see some examples , words with " dh" in Turkish, and stay as it is...

    Persian loans:
    - badherze -incontation employed by house brokers....etc
    -bedhah- malevolent
    -bedhal- miserable
    -bedhuy- bad tempered
    -dudhane- hearth,house,fireplace...

    Arabic loans:

    -adha: animal sacrified at the feast of sacrifice
    -edhan-( plural of duhn)
    -edhem: black(horse)
    -hedhede: camels' bellowing. Birds cooing or singing
    -hudhud:hoopoe
    -idhak: causing laughter
    -idhalat: importation
    -kadh: slander,reproach
    -medhur: driven away, banished
    medhus: bewildered
    -mudhel: inserted
    -mudhik: causes, laughter
    -mudhike: drollery
    -mudhis: extra ordinary
     

    berndf

    Moderator
    German (Germany)
    Let's see some examples , words with " dh" in Turkish, and stay as it is...
    No-one ever talked about words with the sequence "dh" in Turkish. We were talking about Arabic ض becoming "z" in Turkish like "Ramazan" or "beyaz" (from Arabic بيض). "dh" was ment as a (not quite accurate) transcription of the letter ض.
     

    Canbek

    Member
    Kurdish-Can't speakproperly-Turkish
    These are other examples of ض becoming 'd' in Turkish, thanks. So we now agree not all Arabic loans into Turkish with ض in them became 'z'?



    This is not 'dh' as a single sound, it is hud hud.
    1- I've no idea about Arabic alphabet, so it's useless to responde my message through these scripts.
    2-I don't say that Arabic dh-s becomes "z" in Turkish ...I suggest you to concentrate... Obviously your English is far better than mine.
    This responde had to be forwarded to Melaike, read her comment..I merely showed these words to conradict her- which does-. My point is d-or dh, what ever it is, doesnot become "z" in Turkish...They were already " z" because loaned from Persian in that form, not from Arabic straight.This has got historical roots( I'm not saying some of them Kurdish loan, considering national allergy in Turkey towards anything+everything related to Kurdish). In another words, the words I've provided bendf, contradicts the comments of Melaike...Don't worry, these words are all Arabic( including the ones loaned from Persian) and I've got no objections to the truth.
    <...>
    5-For " hudhud" I suggest you to discuss your concerns with the Turks and the other linguists, who prepared this dictionary.
     
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    berndf

    Moderator
    German (Germany)
    1- I've no idea about Arabic alphabet, so it's useless to responde my message through these scripts.
    Than you should familiarize yourself with it. This is exactly what Maraike meant: Arabic ض becomes "z" in Turkish.
    My point is d-or dh, what ever it is, doesnot become "z" in Turkish
    It is kind of important what it is. If you don't know what it is than ask and don't contradict.
     
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    Canbek

    Member
    Kurdish-Can't speakproperly-Turkish
    The problem, I refer to latin, you refer to orignal Arabic alphabet...What I see in the word Melaike, there is no " z" in it...But in Ramazan, there is one...And it's my argument's starting point...Is it contradiction ?
     

    berndf

    Moderator
    German (Germany)
    The problem, I refer to latin, you refer to orignal Arabic alphabet.
    This is your problem not ours. When other people here wrote "dh" they definitely meant ض. This is an Arabic sound that does not exist in Turkish nor in any European language. "dh" was just an attempt to represent this sound with Latin letters. This has absolutely nothing to do with "d" followed by "h" as in "hudhud".

    In fact, this sound is so special to Arabic that the Arabic is sometimes called "the languages of Dad (ض)".
     

    Canbek

    Member
    Kurdish-Can't speakproperly-Turkish
    This is your problem not ours. When other people here wrote "dh" they definitely meant ض. This is an Arabic sound that does not exist in Turkish nor in any European language. "dh" was just an attempt to represent this sound with Latin letters. This has absolutely nothing to do with "d" followed by "h" as in "hudhud".

    In fact, this sound is so special to Arabic that the Arabic is sometimes called "the languages of Dad (ض)".
    oK, let me leave you with your language of dad ...Enjoy..
     

    Abu Rashid

    Senior Member
    Australian English
    1- I've no idea about Arabic alphabet, so it's useless to responde my message through these scripts.
    The Arabic letter ض represents a 'd'-like sound that some people often pronounce more like 'z'. It's like saying a saturated 'd' with your tongue hanging out.

    2-I don't say that Arabic dh-s becomes "z" in Turkish ...I suggest you to concentrate... Obviously your English is far better than mine.
    I understood from the following quote that this is what you meant.

    By the way, had Kurdish borrowed " ard/erd" from Arabic, it would have been " arz" rather than " Ard"..Because these " d" letters, somehow changes to " z" in Kurdish, if borrowed from Arabic...Such as " Ramadan" as " Ramazan"...And borrowed by Turkish from Kurdish this way too..." Ard" becomes "arz" and used in Turkish more likely borrowed from Armenian as earth...
    My point is d-or dh, what ever it is, doesnot become "z" in Turkish...They were already " z" because loaned from Persian in that form, not from Arabic straight.This has got historical roots( I'm not saying some of them Kurdish loan, considering national allergy in Turkey towards anything+everything related to Kurdish). In another words, the words I've provided bendf, contradicts the comments of Melaike...Don't worry, these words are all Arabic( including the ones loaned from Persian) and I've got no objections to the truth.
    They were also possibly already pronounced 'z'-like by the Arabs they were borrowed from too, as this pronunciation is not uncommon amongst Arabic speakers either. The point is that the assertion that ض always becomes 'z' in loans to Persian and Turkish and by extension Kurdish does not hold.

    <...>
     
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    Phosphorus

    Senior Member
    Kurdish
    In Kurdish one of the counterparts for "earth" is "erd" or "herd". At the first sight it might resemble Arabic "erdh". Since there is "qerd" (however with a pretty much less usage compared to "h/erd") in sub-dialectal Kurdish which is derived from "qerz"-itself an Arabic loan. But the case with "h/erd" is the existence of initial "h-", while in "erz" or "3erz" (other varieties of "erdh" in Kurdish) there appears to be no initial "h-". Also "herd" is used in definitions wider than earth (e.g. "herdeban" ~ "heights") and in some cases there surprisingly stand "herd" and "erz" simultaneously in one dialect. Therefore it stands to reason that "h/erd" could be of another origin. One possibility is Proto-Iranian "harda-*" which appears in form of "heri"/"xeri" in Kurdish in sense of "mud". However this presumable suggestion does not preclude Kurdish "herd" from the probability of sharing the very same root with the etymologically ambiguous "earth" in English!
     

    Melaike

    Member
    Turkish
    Thousands of Arabic words, starting with "d", ends with "d", includes "d" in it, couple of it, do exist in Redhouse Turkish to English dictionary, in front of me now...no Arabic or Persian word, ends with "dh" "tends" to be "z" in Turkish, incorrect !

    The islamic religious words, for example Ramadan to RamaZan, comes from Persian( let's exlude Kurdish, exactly the same in this word), which is a borrow absolutely from Arabic...Also Namaz ( salah in Arabic ?) comes from Persian and It is a Persian word.
    ( mentioned in Avesta in this form- Kurdish is Nemah, mentioned in Avesta in this form)

    Let's see some examples , words with " dh" in Turkish, and stay as it is...

    Persian loans:
    - badherze -incontation employed by house brokers....etc
    -bedhah- malevolent
    -bedhal- miserable
    -bedhuy- bad tempered
    -dudhane- hearth,house,fireplace...
    All of these Persian words are actually compound nouns.Bed-hah,Bed-hal,Bed-huy,Dud-Hane (I couldn't recognise ''Badherze'').


    Arabic loans:

    -adha: animal sacrified at the feast of sacrifice
    -edhan-( plural of duhn)
    -edhem: black(horse)
    -hedhede: camels' bellowing. Birds cooing or singing
    -hudhud:hoopoe
    -idhak: causing laughter
    -idhalat: importation
    -kadh: slander,reproach
    -medhur: driven away, banished
    medhus: bewildered
    -mudhel: inserted
    -mudhik: causes, laughter
    -mudhike: drollery
    -mudhis: extra ordinary
    Adha Ottoman Turkish ''Adha''
    Edhan Ottoman Turkish ''Edhan''
    İdhalat Turkish ''İthalat''
    Mudhis Turkish ''Müthiş ''(Not sure about this one)
    Hudhud Turkish ''Hüthüt''
    Mudhik Ottoman Turkish ''Mudhik''
    Edhem Ottoman Turkish ''Edhem''
    Medhur Ottoman Turkish ''Medhur''

    I couldn't recognise some of these words nor could I find them in Ottoman-Turkish dictionaries.But ''d'' sound before ''h'' as in ''mudhel'' or ''mudhik'' usually turns to ''t'' in Turkish (especially in colloquial language ).
     

    Canbek

    Member
    Kurdish-Can't speakproperly-Turkish
    Redhouse Yeni Turkce-Ingilizce Sozluk

    Editors: V.Bahadir Alkim, Nazime Antel,Robert Avery, Janos Eckmann,Sofi Huri,Fahir Iz, Mecdud Mansuroglu,Andreas Tietze

    16th edition, Ekim 1996, 3000 adet.

    The " d" sound turns to "t" in colloquial language, however loaned and used in that form.
     

    Canbek

    Member
    Kurdish-Can't speakproperly-Turkish
    In Kurdish one of the counterparts for "earth" is "erd" or "herd". At the first sight it might resemble Arabic "erdh". Since there is "qerd" (however with a pretty much less usage compared to "h/erd") in sub-dialectal Kurdish which is derived from "qerz"-itself an Arabic loan. But the case with "h/erd" is the existence of initial "h-", while in "erz" or "3erz" (other varieties of "erdh" in Kurdish) there appears to be no initial "h-". Also "herd" is used in definitions wider than earth (e.g. "herdeban" ~ "heights") and in some cases there surprisingly stand "herd" and "erz" simultaneously in one dialect. Therefore it stands to reason that "h/erd" could be of another origin. One possibility is Proto-Iranian "harda-*" which appears in form of "heri"/"xeri" in Kurdish in sense of "mud". However this presumable suggestion does not preclude Kurdish "herd" from the probability of sharing the very same root with the etymologically ambiguous "earth" in English!
    Hi,

    IE languages are in two camps in this case:

    Persian, Beloci,Pasto-----------Avesta, the word used is " Zamin"...And the Slavic languages borrowed from IE-Avesta

    Germanic-Kurdish-Litva is in a form of Erd(e).

    My argument is, did Germanic+Litva borrowed this from Yazadi Kurds ? Or bypassed Kurdish and borrowed from Semitics...It doesnot sound allright to me; because in this case Germanic+Litva would be in the position to established some unknown trade+culturel route with Semitics and borrowed from them.. why wouldn't they borrow the name of the soil they stood on, cultivate from eastern Slavics who were living next to these tribes ?

    Kurdish words " or-ar-er-ere-erd-ard ..." suggest that there's a strong link between these and Earth.
     

    berndf

    Moderator
    German (Germany)
    I don't think so. Germanic cognates of Latin terra are German dürr and Old English thyrre (not related to but meaning dry).
     

    Phosphorus

    Senior Member
    Kurdish
    Hi,

    IE languages are in two camps in this case:

    Persian, Beloci,Pasto-----------Avesta, the word used is " Zamin"...And the Slavic languages borrowed from IE-Avesta
    Hi Canbek. Bro we are better to say that Slavic and Iranian languages, as well as many other I.E. speeches, share the same root in this case. Kurdish "zev"/"zem" (also found in combinations such as "zimeg" ~ "winter stay", "cold part of the mountain" or "zemher" ~ literally "winter's flour") is a cognate of Avestan "zama-" and they both share the same etymology with Slavic "zhymi" (if I am right) and even Latin "humus*"-from which the very word "human" is derived, literally meaning "earthly".

    Germanic-Kurdish-Litva is in a form of Erd(e).

    My argument is, did Germanic+Litva borrowed this from Yazadi Kurds ? Or bypassed Kurdish and borrowed from Semitics...It doesnot sound allright to me; because in this case Germanic+Litva would be in the position to established some unknown trade+culturel route with Semitics and borrowed from them.. why wouldn't they borrow the name of the soil they stood on, cultivate from eastern Slavics who were living next to these tribes ?
    The difficulty in this case is that the exact etymological root of the aforementioned words, namely erd/earth, still eludes us. So we are not aware of the precise relationship between these words. But I believe Germanic "earth" and other similar cases in Northern European speeches, are most likely no borrowings from any Semitic or Iranian languages, and neither the vice versa is probable. I conceive of "earth", "herd", and "ardh" as common to a vast range of human languages. Probably something similar to the case of "cat" or as a much more at hand example "papa"/"mama" words which are almost to be found in the bulk of human speeches on this earth. Once there was presumably a Proto-Human language in which relies the very roots of globally widespread words such as "earth"/"herd"/"ardh"/"aretz" or "papa"/"baba"/"ubaba"/bawa".

    Kurdish words " or-ar-er-ere-erd-ard ..." suggest that there's a strong link between these and Earth.
    Since there is no specific etymologies for either "earth" or "(h)erd", then I too speculate a common root for them-along with their Semitic equivalents.
     
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    Canbek

    Member
    Kurdish-Can't speakproperly-Turkish
    I don't think so. Germanic cognates of Latin terra are German dürr and Old English thyrre (not related to but meaning dry).

    Hi,
    1- In Ethiopinan, Coptic( egyptian-kipti) and if available in Barberi ( Alger,Tunisia...) words for Earth ?

    2-Another issue arises( in my opinion); had Germanic borrowed " erde" from , say Hebrew and/or Akkadian version, phonetically would it be different to existing "erde" (if you assume it's an Arabic loan)?

    2-In Arabic, Hebrew and Akkadian, are there some words related to earth ( in their languages) ?

    thanks
     

    rayloom

    Senior Member
    Arabic (Hijazi Arabic)
    Hi,
    1- In Ethiopinan, Coptic( egyptian-kipti) and if available in Barberi ( Alger,Tunisia...) words for Earth ?

    2-Another issue arises( in my opinion); had Germanic borrowed " erde" from , say Hebrew and/or Akkadian version, phonetically would it be different to existing "erde" (if you assume it's an Arabic loan)?

    2-In Arabic, Hebrew and Akkadian, are there some words related to earth ( in their languages) ?

    thanks
    1- You can find here the AfroAsiatic etymology. (Coptic and Tamazight seem to use words for earth of different etymologies, since they're not listed here).

    2- We aren't assuming here a Germanic borrowing from Semitic.

    3- Check the previous link (click on Semitic).
     

    aeneas dardanus

    Banned
    Dardanian
    Albanian:
    erth (palatal.), erdh; {arth\ardh}
    Eng., {came : (to) come}
    originally {to step on the sure ground; shore; ground; [opposite of embarking] };

    Its inversed form with contraction:
    Ter:, tha[e]r, [thar]
    ---> (to) dry; dry, [dried];


    N., terig : dry wind; continental (earth) wind.


    <...moderator deleted text...>

    Gea, and alternates should not be considered on profane terminology like: soil, land,terrain and similar because it is a religious category that keeps itself apart from the common speech / language.
     
    Last edited by a moderator:

    aeneas dardanus

    Banned
    Dardanian
    I believe I already managed to say, what I was 'trying'.
    And
    what I said in short, means: you don't name things of profanity with sacred names.

    Gea was not considered a thing, but a person that happens to be a Goddess of a greatest
    importance and sanctity, you don't allow divine names to be used in a profane
    or vulgar manner. And that's why seeking etymologies in connection with sacred
    names is in vain, because they are not used for naming things on profane
    everyday speech for centuries, or for as long as they are respected and
    regarded as sacred.


    For instance the root Di[w: ] in Slavic -derives the word "divljak" - meaning "savage". Yet in English, it still derives a respectful word of Divinity, even though the root di[w] was only a syllogism of divine entities, a generic form meaning [divine] couple.
     

    Perseas

    Senior Member
    Gea, and alternates should not be considered on profane terminology like: soil, land,terrain and similar because it is a religious category that keeps itself apart from the common speech / language.
    Apart from the fact that this only an assumption:
    Gea was not considered a thing, but a person that happens to be a Goddess of a greatest importance and sanctity
    in that the "thing" could have given its name to the "person";
    what's the point in connecting the etymology of "Γαῖα" to the etymology of "Earth"?
     
    I believe I already managed to say, what I was 'trying'.
    And
    what I said in short, means: you don't name things of profanity with sacred names.

    Gea was not considered a thing, but a person that happens to be a Goddess of a greatest
    importance and sanctity, you don't allow divine names to be used in a profane
    or vulgar manner. And that's why seeking etymologies in connection with sacred
    names is in vain, because they are not used for naming things on profane
    everyday speech for centuries, or for as long as they are respected and
    regarded as sacred.


    For instance the root Di[w: ] in Slavic -derives the word "divljak" - meaning "savage". Yet in English, it still derives a respectful word of Divinity, even though the root di[w] was only a syllogism of divine entities, a generic form meaning [divine] couple.
    I don't know what your scientific background is, but your claim is simply absurd, «γαῖα» has been the Greek name of the earth, soil, dirt, terrain, land, since Homeric times; the name is nothing more than the fusion of «γῆ»/«γᾶ» with the Homeric «αἶα», the latter from PIE base *h₂ewh₂yos, ancestor, granparent (cf. Lat. avus/avia); «γαῖα» means nothing more than mother-earth, and the three «αἶα»/«γῆ»/«γαῖα» are used interchangeably in both the Greek literature and the vernacular language since Homer:
    Homer--> «Φυσίζωος αἶα»
    Homer--> «Πάντες ὕδωρ καὶ γαῖα γένοισθε»
    Homer--> «γῆ νηχομένοισι φανήῃ»
    There's nothing mysterious or divine about the name «γαῖα»
    Apart from the fact that this only an assumption: in that the "thing" could have given its name to the "person";
    what's the point in connecting the etymology of "Γαῖα" to the etymology of "Earth"?
    Exactly I'm not sure what he tries to establish
    :confused:
     
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