Etymology: Earth

  • berndf

    Moderator
    German (Germany)
    Ain't that obvious?
    (let's sum it up again)
    There's no etymological connection between words "Gaia" and "Earth"!
    Irrespective of whether your argument that profane and religious roots are never mixed is right or wrong (it is actually wrong, as apmoy70 demonstrated), who claimed the two roots were etymologically related in the first place?

    What you actually said was
    Gea, and alternates should not be considered on profane terminology like: soil, land,terrain and similar because it is a religious category that keeps itself apart from the common speech / language.
    and that is wrong, plain and simple.
     

    Dhira Simha

    Senior Member
    UK
    Russian
    Let us put the discussion on somewhat more scientific basis. This is what the etymological dictionary says:
    earth (n.) O.E. eorþe "ground, soil, dry land," also used (along with middangeard) for "the (material) world" (as opposed to the heavens or the underworld), from P.Gmc. *ertho (cf. O.Fris. erthe "earth," O.S. ertha, O.N. jörð, M.Du. eerde, Du. aarde, O.H.G. erda, Ger. Erde, Goth. airþa), from PIE root *er- (2) "earth, ground" (cf. M.Ir. -ert "earth"). The earth considered as a planet was so called from c.1400.

    The furthest it takes us is the Gothic airþa. According to the Grimm's Law, the Gothic þ would lead us to "proto-IE" dh and to a reconstructed *e(a)rdh. We can not check it on the "proto-language" but we may turn the good old Sanskrit. We readily find there not one, but two suitable words: 1) ardha "side, part; place, region, country" and 2) ardha "half. halved, forming a half; one part of the two". Both are semantically compatible: the first one - if we interpret the ancient meaning of "earth" not as soil but in a more generalised meaning "place, world" (importantly in the etymological dictionary we find that the word "earth" stood for "the (material) world" i.e. not just "soil". The other one is also possible if we recall the Vedic (also IE) cosmogony in which Sky and Earth formed a perpetual union. There are many words for it: rodas n. du. "heaven and earth"; dyāvā "heaven and Earth etc." Therefore, ardha "one part of two" may well be taken as an allegoric name for one half of the union - the earth.

    The Skr. ardha explains quite well the O.E. eorþe and the modern earth. The final /d/ in the O.H.G. erda and Ger. Erde does not contradict this if we consider the High-Germanic consonant shift: þ to d (Let berndf correct me if I am wrong). There is also Ger. ort "place" which is sometimes linked to ardha but it most probably continues the Lat. ordo.

    I am not an expert in Arabic but the Arabic arD, quoted in the beginning, may well be related here. There is a tendency to label every IE word which has a similar form in Semitic as a Semitic loan, however it is well known that IE peoples were thriving in Anatolia and the Middle East as far back as 2000 BC so, to be objective, we should also consider an equal possibility of IE loans into Semitic.
     
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    Abu Rashid

    Senior Member
    Australian English
    I am not an expert in Arabic but the Arabic arD, quoted in the beginning, may well be related here.
    Possibly, although the loan would've had to have been very very early, much earlier than your 2000 B.C.E timeframe mentioned below. The word exists in Akkadian, a language attested at least as far back as 2600 B.C.E. and it's already in an evolved form in Akkadian, as erṣetu, indicating it has been a Semitic word probably since before the East/West branching of the Semitic languages.

    There is a tendency to label every IE word which has a similar form in Semitic as a Semitic loan,
    Surely you jest? There is certainly a tendency, but it's in the opposite direction.

    however it is well known that IE peoples were thriving in Anatolia and the Middle East as far back as 2000 BC so, to be objective, we should also consider an equal possibility of IE loans into Semitic.
    It's certainly a possibility, either direction of loaning for this root is a possibility, but it would have to have been at a very early stage in the development of both families, since it exists in most members of each family, and shows the regular sound changes in both as well that we'd expect from a seasoned native word.

    There's also the possibility it's just a coincidence.
     

    Dhira Simha

    Senior Member
    UK
    Russian
    There's also the possibility it's just a coincidence.
    Abu Rashid, I would not argue with you. As I said, I am no an expert in Semitic. Etymology is not an exact science. All we can do is to provide more or less intelligible theories.
     
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    aruniyan

    Senior Member
    Tamil
    Let us put the discussion on somewhat more scientific basis. This is what the etymological dictionary says:
    earth (n.) O.E. eorþe "ground, soil, dry land," also used (along with middangeard) for "the (material) world" (as opposed to the heavens or the underworld), from P.Gmc. *ertho (cf. O.Fris. erthe "earth," O.S. ertha, O.N. jörð, M.Du. eerde, Du. aarde, O.H.G. erda, Ger. Erde, Goth. airþa), from PIE root *er- (2) "earth, ground" (cf. M.Ir. -ert "earth"). The earth considered as a planet was so called from c.1400.

    The furthest it takes us is the Gothic airþa. According to the Grimm's Law, the Gothic þ would lead us to "proto-IE" dh and to a reconstructed *e(a)rdh. We can not check it on the "proto-language" but we may turn the good old Sanskrit. We readily find there not one, but two suitable words: 1) ardha "side, part; place, region, country" and 2) ardha "half. halved, forming a half; one part of the two". Both are semantically compatible: the first one - if we interpret the ancient meaning of "earth" not as soil but in a more generalised meaning "place, world" (importantly in the etymological dictionary we find that the word "earth" stood for "the (material) world" i.e. not just "soil". The other one is also possible if we recall the Vedic (also IE) cosmogony in which Sky and Earth formed a perpetual union. There are many words for it: rodas n. du. "heaven and earth"; dyāvā "heaven and Earth etc." Therefore, ardha "one part of two" may well be taken as an allegoric name for one half of the union - the earth.
    Sanskrit ardha(half) ->Earth doesnt make much sense,
    fyi. all so called Dravidian languages has that word "arai" (half).
     

    Dhira Simha

    Senior Member
    UK
    Russian
    This is my version on the Etymology of the Slavonic words for "earth":
    605земляzemlyāhemāहेमा
    zemljaearthearth
    Traditionally linked to SA kṣam क्षम् 'the ground, earth' (VAS) although the new etymology offered by Guseva is more plausible both semantically and phonetically. Compare the AV zam-, LA humus and GR χαμαί 'on the ground'. The medial /l/ is not present in some RU dialects and SL languages and could be a linking co-articulatory sound (l-epentheticum). Sounds /z/ and /h/ are interchangeable (cp зима zima and hima हिम 'winter'). The agreement in gender (feminine) as well as the long -ā in the Sanskrit word and the corresponding stress on the last vowel in many Slavonic languages. The alternative cognate śyāma श्याम 'black, dark-coloured' proposed by Adelung (ADEL, 14) is also worth considering but it is less plausible phonetically. UA земля́; BY земля́; BG земя́; SRB зѐмља; SLO zémlja; CZ země; SK zem; PL ziemia; LT žẽmė; LV zеmе; AV zam-; GUS 4
     

    Dhira Simha

    Senior Member
    UK
    Russian
    Sanskrit ardha(half) ->Earth doesnt make much sense,
    fyi. all so called Dravidian languages has that word "arai" (half).
    Good point, however ardha is attested in the oldest layer of Vedic:

    ardhá: (page 29)
    ʼ. uttarārdhá--, *grāmārdha--, paścārdhá--, pūrvārdha--. ardhá 644 ardhá2 ʻ half ʼ, m.n. ʻ a half ʼ RV. [Same as árdha-- 1?] Pa. aḍḍha--, °aka--, addha-- m.n., Aś. aḍha--, NiDoc. ardha, aḍha, adha, Pk. aḍḍha--, addha--; Tir. aḍḍa ʻ halffull ʼ, Paš.

    We may as well suggest a loan into Dravidian.
     

    eamp

    Member
    German (Austria)
    Germanic /þ/ can only go back to pre-Germanic /t/ not /dh/ so it can't have anything to do with ardha or the like.
    German "Ort" has the original meaning "point, tip (of a weapon)" and is from Germanic *uzdaz, having nothing whatsoever to do with "earth".
     

    Dhira Simha

    Senior Member
    UK
    Russian
    Sorry, for a moment I wanted to recall my post. I thought that I misunderstood the Gimm's law. I have just re-checked and it does say
    dʰ → d → t → θ/ As for German ort the cardinal meaning is "place". Check the dictionary
     
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    Dhira Simha

    Senior Member
    UK
    Russian
    Hi Canbek. Bro we are better to say that Slavic and Iranian languages, as well as many other I.E. speeches, share the same root in this case. Kurdish "zev"/"zem" (also found in combinations such as "zimeg" ~ "winter stay", "cold part of the mountain" or "zemher" ~ literally "winter's flour") is a cognate of Avestan "zama-" and they both share the same etymology with Slavic "zhymi" (if I am right) and even Latin "humus*"-from which the very word "human" is derived, literally meaning "earthly".
    Phosphorus, I fully support you here (see my recent post). However, zem(l)ja - hema "the earth" and zima - hima "winter' derive from different roots.
     
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    eamp

    Member
    German (Austria)
    Sorry, for a moment I wanted to recall my post. I thought that I misunderstood the Gimm's law. I have just re-checked and it does say
    dʰ → d → t → θ/ As for German ort the cardinal meaning is "place". Check the dictionary
    Which means: dʰ becomes d, d becomes t, and t becomes θ. For example PIE *dʰuro- > Gmc. *dura- > Goth. daur ("door"), PIE *dekm(t) > Gmc. *tehun > Goth. taihun ("ten"), PIE *toi > Gmc. *θai > Goth. þai ("they").
    Telling a native speaker to check the dictionary is quite rich. Today the primary meaning is "place", yes, but that's recent, in Old High German and all the other old Germanic dialects where this word occurs it indeed means "point" or "tip". "ort widar orte" from the Hildebrandslied is quite famous and it means "(spear)tip against (spear)tip".
     

    Dhira Simha

    Senior Member
    UK
    Russian
    Sorry, did not check your native language:). I only mentioned ort because I came across some etymologies linking it to Skr. ardh. I agree with you that while Skr. ardh would be acceptable for the German Erde the English earth and Goth. airþa present a problem. So I have to recall my theory.

    I have noticed that in Watkins' dictionary earth is derived from *er- but the final /t/ is not explained. Could it be a P.P.P ending *er-ta ? If so then everything seems to be getting in place. The verb a(o)r in the sense "to plough" is well arrested: LAT аrō, -ārе , Greek ἀρόω; Goth аrjаn and it is also prominent in Slavonic: orati, Baltic Lith. árti and is directly related to Skr: (ā) (intes. ār) meaning 'to insert, to cast through, pierce' which is a literal description of the process of ploughing (Cp. also āra आर 'sting, point, corner, angle; bore' which is also compatible with the plough). The P.P.P. of ār in Skr. would be ārta which is quite compatible with the P. Germ. *ertho. The -d forms in some Germanic languages can still be explained through the High Germanic shift (θ-d). If we look at 'earth' from this angle we may interpret it as a descriptive 'the ploughed (one)' which does make sense.
     
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    berndf

    Moderator
    German (Germany)
    I only mentioned ort because I came across some etymologies linking it to Skr. ardh. I agree with you that while Skr. ardh would be acceptable for the German Erde the English earth and Goth. airþa present a problem.
    /þ/ > /d/ is a regular development in German (cf. English this/German dies, English brother/German Bruder). This shift happened during the Old High German period already where you find spellings with "þ" and with "d" for some words. Even if the form *erþa is not attested (which is the case, to my knowledge) it must still be assumed that the attested form erda is derived from *erþa.
     

    Dhira Simha

    Senior Member
    UK
    Russian
    Er - plough (long ā sound)
    Thank you! This is extremely interesting. I would also add EraTi-ttal 'to plough'. It is important, however, that in Sanskrit we apparently see the primordial meaning "to pierce, break, disturb" from which 'to plough' developed later.
     
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    Dhira Simha

    Senior Member
    UK
    Russian
    Frankly, I have not found anything extrodinary about "earth" in the 'Nostratic' database. Perhaps you meant this:

    Eurasiatic: *ʔVrHV

    Meaning: open space
    Borean: Borean


    Indo-European: *ārH- (also Hitt. hari- 'valley')


    Altaic: *ā́rV


    Uralic: *arV (cf. also Ug. *arV 'side, direction')


    Kartvelian: ? Georg. χriaṭ- 'steiniger Abhang'
    Dravidian: *ar_-ai ( + ? SD *aṛ- 'rivermouth')


    References: ND 66 *ʔarV 'earth, land, place' (also adding PIE *er- 'earth' and PSH *ʔarVĉ̣- id.?); suggests that it is = 73 *(ʔV)rV 'towards' ( > SH, IE, Ur, Alt locative markers); 720 *Gari 'valley, hollow in the ground, cave' (adding Kartv. ɣar- 'gutter, furrow' which is probably erroneous and Sem. *ɣār- 'valley, cave'); 2607 *χaŕ[ü] 'valley, depression, pit' (?Georg. + Dr. *aṛ- + same FP, same IE + Arab. + ??Eg.).

    Personally, I am not convinced at all.
     

    Phosphorus

    Senior Member
    Kurdish
    Phosphorus, I fully support you here (see my recent post). However, zem(l)ja - hema "the earth" and zima - hima "winter' derive from different roots.
    I am grateful for your correction. I was really given to conceive of them all as cognates, indeed due to the mere outward resemblance.
     

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    I too felt that the English word Earth and the Arabic أرض was just a coincidence. But what about kahf = cave and qat3 (cutting)? Could there have been a link somewhere in the distant past between Indo-European and Semitic family of languages?
     

    Abu Rashid

    Senior Member
    Australian English
    I too felt that the English word Earth and the Arabic أرض was just a coincidence. But what about kahf = cave and qat3 (cutting)? Could there have been a link somewhere in the distant past between Indo-European and Semitic family of languages?
    If such false friends (words that appear at a cursory glance like cognates, but aren't) didn't exist, then it would actually be something extraordinary. The fact they exist is simply a matter of statistics.
     

    rayloom

    Senior Member
    Arabic (Hijazi Arabic)

    rushalaim

    Senior Member
    русский
    All argue here because of the last letter of the word what differs in different languages.
    Aramaic ארעא and Hebrew ארץ have the common root אר
     

    berndf

    Moderator
    German (Germany)
    All argue here because of the last letter of the word what differs in different languages.
    Aramaic ארעא and Hebrew ארץ have the common root אר
    The PS reconstruction is *ʾarṣ́. In Aramaic, ע/ק is the regular outcome of PS ṣ́ as is ץ in Hebrew and ض in Arabic.
     

    apmoy70

    Senior Member
    Greek
    Let me add the archaic Greek feminine «ἔρα» érā (nom. sing.), «ἔρας» érās (gen. sing.) (Beekes suggests a possible PIE root *h₁er- earth with cognate the Proto-Germanic *erþō > Ger. Erde, Eng. earth, Dt. aarde, D./Nor./Swe. jord) a word quite possibly related to the Classical fem. «ἄρδα» ắrdā --> dirt, soil (cf the ancient Upper Macedonian country of «Ἐορδαία» Ĕŏrdaí̯ā home of Alexander's general Ptolemy, v. «ἄρδω» ā́rdō --> to irrigate)
     

    JamshidR

    New Member
    Kurdish
    I am not sure whether the similarity between English earth and Arabic ارض is a coincidence or whether the two words are in some way related but so far nobody discussed the Arabic word ارض linguistically more closely. As everybody can see there are three things in Arabic ارض which make me assume it is an arabized form of the Indo-European
    1. Arabic reverts to initial Hamza-Alif to avoid consonant clusters or vowels
    2. Arabic tends to make foreign sounds emphatic. So ض in ارض is an indication as in other words such as ايطاليا
    3. Arabic is often undetermined when it comes to plurals of foreign words as we see in the old plural ارضون next to اراض
     

    berndf

    Moderator
    German (Germany)
    1. Arabic reverts to initial Hamza-Alif to avoid consonant clusters or vowels
    2. Arabic tends to make foreign sounds emphatic. So ض in ارض is an indication as in other words such as ايطاليا
    3. Arabic is often undetermined when it comes to plurals of foreign words as we see in the old plural ارضون next to اراض
    All these would be arguments, if the Arabic word were isolated within Semitic. But in combination with Hebrew ארץ and Aramaic ארעא the PS reconstruction *'-r-ṣ́ is almost impossible to reject. The tendency to imports IE plosives as emphatics is because most loans entered Arabic via Aramaic and Aramaic used emphatics to transliterate foreign plosives to avoid the ambiguities of gimel-ghimmel, daleth-dhaleth, etc. This plays no role, if the word is inherited from PS and the hypothetical common ancestor of the IE and Semitic words predates PIE and PS.
     

    JamshidR

    New Member
    Kurdish
    I agree that´s why I said I am not sure and that it is my personal view, however the original Arab homeland was marginal and slighly different from North Semitic when we see it from a geographical point of view. The Arabs have words which comply with their original nomadic culture which might have seen their desert soil as ground قاع . We know for example that their diet was not vegeterian so the word لحم which means bread in Aramaic changed to meat and then they borrowed the word خبز from Amharic. This means that if ارض is not a borrowing from Indo-European then it might still be a borrowing from Aramaic but not a common semitic word. I am still not convinced.
     

    berndf

    Moderator
    German (Germany)
    This means that if ارض is not a borrowing from Indo-European then it might still be a borrowing from Aramaic but not a common semitic word. I am still not convinced.
    The third radical (ض) is consistent with an inheritance from PS (< ṣ́) but not with a loan from Aramaic.

    EDIT: We find ṣ in Canaanite (Hebrew, Phonetician, Moabite), Ugaritic and Akkadian, ض in Arabic and ע/ק in Aramaic. PS *ṣ́ is really the only thing all of this is consistent with.
     
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    rushalaim

    Senior Member
    русский
    The PS reconstruction is *ʾarṣ́. In Aramaic, ע/ק is the regular outcome of PS ṣ́ as is ץ in Hebrew and ض in Arabic.
    All those ץ ע ק ש ת as the last third letter of the word "land" are not the part of root but just addition. The root is ער
    Russian also has many words from that root of "land": "аршин" ("soil-measurer" about 21/3 foot or 0.711 m), "орать" ("to plough" [soil]), "орало" ("the plough").
     

    berndf

    Moderator
    German (Germany)
    All those ץ ע ק ש ת as the last third letter of the word "land" are not the part of root but just addition. The root is ער
    Russian also has many words from that root of "land": "аршин" ("soil-measurer" about 21/3 foot or 0.711 m), "орать" ("to plough" [soil]), "орало" ("the plough").
    In Semitic, it is part of the root. Russian is not a Semitic language. That is irrelevant here.
     

    JamshidR

    New Member
    Kurdish
    Not easy matter but Arabic has relatively few two-radical words (PS). As I said geographical view can also be very helpful in this case. Arabic was relatively a marginal language before Islam and it has borrowed extensively from sister languages and Non-Semitic. For example the typical Arab house was منزل and ( بيت is a borrowing from Aramaic) the word اهل which meant a tent خيمة then developed to mean family. So the central Arabic word is نزل (get off - absteigen) from the camel maybe that´s why Quran repeatedly uses it. Therefore land in the primitive Arab culture cannot simply be equated with ارض I am at my wits´end (mit meinem Latein am Ende) sorry
     

    JamshidR

    New Member
    Kurdish
    nearly all words that have to do with a house are all borrowings because as I said the Arab house used to be a tent without doors and windows. For example the Arabs think that كتب carries the core meaning to write but when they com to the word كتيبة a troop of soldiers they have no clue as the word is Aramaic and the original meaning is put together, to bind and and now it becomes clear. By the way شباك is from Persian. For the discussion of words related to a house you can download a pdf file from archive.org. You can also consult Arne Ambros a concise dictionary of Quranic vocabulary
    1. Siegmund Fränkel Aramaisch im Arabischen
    2. Jeffery Leech the foreign vocabulary in Quran
     

    berndf

    Moderator
    German (Germany)
    nearly all words that have to do with a house are all borrowings because as I said the Arab house used to be a tent without doors and windows.
    بيت has obvious cognates in all Semitic language groups. That certain roots take a somewhat different twist in different language is not a counter argument that the word is native. The most literal translation of منزل into German, e.g., would be Wohnung, a word that really exists in that language. But you wouldn't draw from that the conclusion that Haus and Wohnung can both be native words although they somewhat overlap in meaning.
     

    JamshidR

    New Member
    Kurdish
    I would like to add to what is previously said about the Arabic word ارض that the Arabic word روضة (kinder)garten which is possibly related to ارض is most probably from Persianرز raz fom persian verb rostan from mp rod from aw raod / old persian raza grape (vine) see also Kurdish raz with the same meaning. See also the etymology of English rose below from Wickipedia:
    The name rose comes from French, itself from Latin rosa, which was perhaps borrowed from Oscan, from Greek ρόδον rhódon (Aeolic βρόδον wródon), itself borrowed from Old Persian wrd- (wurdi), related to Avestan varəδa, Sogdian ward, Parthian wâr

    This might imply that the cencept of ارض was probably originally based on a garden of grapes and roses. Even the word garden itself bears a lot of similarity both semantically and phonetically to Arabic ارض
     

    Loewenpfote

    New Member
    Germany - Deutsch
    Hi there! German-Arabic Erd-ard,

    I think, that German Erde (neatherlands: eerd) an arabic *ard/ärd are identic words, like in two dialects of a greater or previous language.
    Therefore they don't drevive from one anathoer but thy belong to a greater language family.

    Let have a look:
    arabic *ard means (ground, earth you are taking from field / Boden/Erde) - and in German we use Erde (in old songs just: Erd') for ground, earth of the field too.

    I don't think this is by random or a word just borrowed,
    for i have found some more possibly related words in German an Arabic.
    Here are some of them:


    May i use a text I wrote in German? If I give a short English summmary? (Else one could cancel the German passages)

    burg / burj (arabic) (tower) seems to be the same as Burg (German) (tower with houses an wall)
    or french/english cities: Edinburgh, Strassburg

    ich würde die Behauptunng aufstellen, dass das Wort Burg nicht aus dem Arabischen "kommt" - sondern dass unsere Sprachen - Arabisch, Deutsch, Altgriechisch, Hebräisch, weitere - miteinander verwandt sind. Wir sprechen sozusagen verschiedene "Dialekte" einer Vorgängersprache. Beim Burj al Arab fiel mir auf, dass es wie Burg - französisch ausgesporchen - aussieht. Vgl. Burgeoisie. Später entdeckte ich, dass die Ägipter (ich schreibe ausprachegemäß, ich hoffe, das its in der Diskussion okee) tatsächlich burg sagen. Die Altgriechen haben pyrgos (pürgos), was wie im Arabischen Turm heißt. Da b, p, pf quasi das gleiche sind (der eine sprichts so aus, der andere so), ist pürg(os) das gleiche wir Bürg(os) oder Bürg. Das liegt nahe an der Burg oder dem Bürg-er. Bei uns, im Deutschen, ist die Burg auch ein Turm, nur mit Häusern und Mauern oder sogar mit einer ganzen Stadt drumrum: Straßburg, Magdeburg, Edinbourgh.

    As i said: if you hve only one or a few word, they mey be loandwords:
    Burg allein könnte ein Wanderwort sein, so wie Internetz, Kompjuter usw., das einfach eine Sprache von der anderen übernommen hat.


    Zwischen Arabisch und Deutsch habe ich aber eine Reihe von Wörtern entdeckt, die zumindest die Vermutung nahelegen, dass das mehr als Zufall und mehr als bloße Wortübernahme sein könnte. Mit anderen Worten: Ich tippe auf eine Sprachverwandtschaft zwischen Arabisch und Deutsch.


    Beispiele:

    But here are some more:

    Habe eine ganze (kleine) Reihe von Wörtern gefunden, die dt.-arab ähnlich sind (Lautfolge) und eine ähnliche Bedeutung haben​


    zB - *ard, ärd - heißt Boden, Erde -- vgl.dt. Erd', ndl. eerd - engl. earth, or as you said: hebrew eretz (sounds lik German Erz, a kind of stony (earth) with metal inside


    Hey, guess: If German an Arabic borrow the "internet" or "pullover" oder "computjer" of English, than that's because we importet the word togeather with the invention, instead of coining a new word.
    But earh is a very common word. There's no need to borrow it.
    We- in German- have Erde - we don't say "earth". Why should we? Arabic hat "ard", why should thes say earth?

    Therefor "internet" is likly to be loaned from English - as there was no internet in all the nations before. But "earth" oder "Erd(e)" or "ard" seems very unlikly to be loaned from anothere language. Therefore they're likly to be related.



    Das Wort *ärd/*ard ist ein ziemlich grundlegendes Wort. Also wenn die Burg eine technische Neuerung gewesen sein mag, könnte man sagen: Wow! Die Griechen oder die Araber haben "Vorsprung durch Technik", das übernehmen wir. Wie heißt das Ding denn? Ach, Burg nennt sich das! Ja okee. Und dies komische Blechgehirn, wie nennt man das richtig? Kompjuter!? Ohhh, staun, okee, dann nennen wir das Blechhirn absofort auch Komjuter ...


    Aber warum sollte man ein so grundlegendes Wort wie Erd(e), dass es immer überall gibt, aus dem Englischen, Deutschen, Japanischen oder Arabischen entleihen? Als Fremdwort für besondere Dinge: ja: global. Aber Erde an sich ...


    Der Duden achtet da gar nicht auf die Ähnlichkeiten mit dem Arabischen! Deutsch: Erde, in alten Liedern: Erd', holländisch: eerd, indogermanisch rekonstruiert: er(t). und Arabisch: auch *ärd. Und alles heitß Boden, Erde (nicht immer: Weltkugel)


    Ich finde, diese Ähnlichkeit ist doch gar nicht zu übersehen. Wenn man drauf kommt.



    >- hulla/hölla (arabic) - Clothing / Kleidung - vgl. German Hülle (Clothinng is a "Hülle" (kind of surroundig)

    >- saba = 7 - SieBen (s+b) >
    arabic saba is even nerer to German sieben than the english seven !!!!! 7


    - Hausch ca. Hof. vgl. Haus (und Hof) >- looks like swabian pronounciation of "house": s > sch, not only the building itself, but everything around

    arabic bachr = sea. In German we have the "Bach", not Johann Sebastian Bach but the Bach meaning brook.
    Could bachr meaning sea (Meer) ans Bach meaning brook be the same? Yes it could!
    In the language of the nautics (?), in the Seemanssprache, shippermen fall alway into the "Bach", even in the ocean!

    german Bach derives from a word meaning stream- and both, the sea and the brook include stream (Strömungen)



    ----

    I must make a break in writing

    there are kalb (dog), German: Das ist ja ein Kalb (dog, normally: young cow)
    hilf - Bündnis / alliance - vgl. German hilf(e)/help

    the arabic form again is even nearer to German than German to english

    arabic: aswat - low German: schwat/ swatt /spoken: shwut/swut - German: schwarz
    all the same, meaning: black

    Would you borrow the number 7 from another language?
    I thing thoses words are related.


    Look at Hebrew: alf, coorelated to alpha, and German elf

    alpha ist the first (letter), elf ist 10 + one left, the first left, alf (hebr.) ist the first of 1000 = one thounsand (i think)

    -----------

    There are some more word-souples I found in arabic-german.
    May be i write about them later.

    -----------


    So lets look if we'll find more and more possible related words betwenn German/English and Arabic/Hebrew
     
    Last edited:

    Loewenpfote

    New Member
    Germany - Deutsch
    rushalaim:

    Well, between Erd(e), earth and Eretz there needn'n be a difference.
    As s changes to t an vice versa, sometimes.
     

    Ben Jamin

    Senior Member
    Polish
    Hi there! German-Arabic Erd-ard,

    I think, that German Erde (neatherlands: eerd) an arabic *ard/ärd are identic words, like in two dialects of a greater or previous language.
    Therefore they don't drevive from one anathoer but thy belong to a greater language family.

    Let have a look:
    arabic *ard means (ground, earth you are taking from field / Boden/Erde) - and in German we use Erde (in old songs just: Erd') for ground, earth of the field too.

    I don't think this is by random or a word just borrowed,
    for i have found some more possibly related words in German an Arabic.
    Here are some of them:


    May i use a text I wrote in German? If I give a short English summmary? (Else one could cancel the German passages)

    burg / burj (arabic) (tower) seems to be the same as Burg (German) (tower with houses an wall)
    or french/english cities: Edinburgh, Strassburg

    ich würde die Behauptunng aufstellen, dass das Wort Burg nicht aus dem Arabischen "kommt" - sondern dass unsere Sprachen - Arabisch, Deutsch, Altgriechisch, Hebräisch, weitere - miteinander verwandt sind. Wir sprechen sozusagen verschiedene "Dialekte" einer Vorgängersprache. Beim Burj al Arab fiel mir auf, dass es wie Burg - französisch ausgesporchen - aussieht. Vgl. Burgeoisie. Später entdeckte ich, dass die Ägipter (ich schreibe ausprachegemäß, ich hoffe, das its in der Diskussion okee) tatsächlich burg sagen. Die Altgriechen haben pyrgos (pürgos), was wie im Arabischen Turm heißt. Da b, p, pf quasi das gleiche sind (der eine sprichts so aus, der andere so), ist pürg(os) das gleiche wir Bürg(os) oder Bürg. Das liegt nahe an der Burg oder dem Bürg-er. Bei uns, im Deutschen, ist die Burg auch ein Turm, nur mit Häusern und Mauern oder sogar mit einer ganzen Stadt drumrum: Straßburg, Magdeburg, Edinbourgh.

    As i said: if you hve only one or a few word, they mey be loandwords:
    Burg allein könnte ein Wanderwort sein, so wie Internetz, Kompjuter usw., das einfach eine Sprache von der anderen übernommen hat.


    Zwischen Arabisch und Deutsch habe ich aber eine Reihe von Wörtern entdeckt, die zumindest die Vermutung nahelegen, dass das mehr als Zufall und mehr als bloße Wortübernahme sein könnte. Mit anderen Worten: Ich tippe auf eine Sprachverwandtschaft zwischen Arabisch und Deutsch.


    Beispiele:

    But here are some more:

    Habe eine ganze (kleine) Reihe von Wörtern gefunden, die dt.-arab ähnlich sind (Lautfolge) und eine ähnliche Bedeutung haben​


    zB - *ard, ärd - heißt Boden, Erde -- vgl.dt. Erd', ndl. eerd - engl. earth, or as you said: hebrew eretz (sounds lik German Erz, a kind of stony (earth) with metal inside


    Hey, guess: If German an Arabic borrow the "internet" or "pullover" oder "computjer" of English, than that's because we importet the word togeather with the invention, instead of coining a new word.
    But earh is a very common word. There's no need to borrow it.
    We- in German- have Erde - we don't say "earth". Why should we? Arabic hat "ard", why should thes say earth?

    Therefor "internet" is likly to be loaned from English - as there was no internet in all the nations before. But "earth" oder "Erd(e)" or "ard" seems very unlikly to be loaned from anothere language. Therefore they're likly to be related.



    Das Wort *ärd/*ard ist ein ziemlich grundlegendes Wort. Also wenn die Burg eine technische Neuerung gewesen sein mag, könnte man sagen: Wow! Die Griechen oder die Araber haben "Vorsprung durch Technik", das übernehmen wir. Wie heißt das Ding denn? Ach, Burg nennt sich das! Ja okee. Und dies komische Blechgehirn, wie nennt man das richtig? Kompjuter!? Ohhh, staun, okee, dann nennen wir das Blechhirn absofort auch Komjuter ...


    Aber warum sollte man ein so grundlegendes Wort wie Erd(e), dass es immer überall gibt, aus dem Englischen, Deutschen, Japanischen oder Arabischen entleihen? Als Fremdwort für besondere Dinge: ja: global. Aber Erde an sich ...


    Der Duden achtet da gar nicht auf die Ähnlichkeiten mit dem Arabischen! Deutsch: Erde, in alten Liedern: Erd', holländisch: eerd, indogermanisch rekonstruiert: er(t). und Arabisch: auch *ärd. Und alles heitß Boden, Erde (nicht immer: Weltkugel)


    Ich finde, diese Ähnlichkeit ist doch gar nicht zu übersehen. Wenn man drauf kommt.



    >- hulla/hölla (arabic) - Clothing / Kleidung - vgl. German Hülle (Clothinng is a "Hülle" (kind of surroundig)

    >- saba = 7 - SieBen (s+b) >
    arabic saba is even nerer to German sieben than the english seven !!!!! 7


    - Hausch ca. Hof. vgl. Haus (und Hof) >- looks like swabian pronounciation of "house": s > sch, not only the building itself, but everything around

    arabic bachr = sea. In German we have the "Bach", not Johann Sebastian Bach but the Bach meaning brook.
    Could bachr meaning sea (Meer) ans Bach meaning brook be the same? Yes it could!
    In the language of the nautics (?), in the Seemanssprache, shippermen fall alway into the "Bach", even in the ocean!

    german Bach derives from a word meaning stream- and both, the sea and the brook include stream (Strömungen)



    ----

    I must make a break in writing

    there are kalb (dog), German: Das ist ja ein Kalb (dog, normally: young cow)
    hilf - Bündnis / alliance - vgl. German hilf(e)/help

    the arabic form again is even nearer to German than German to english

    arabic: aswat - low German: schwat/ swatt /spoken: shwut/swut - German: schwarz
    all the same, meaning: black

    Would you borrow the number 7 from another language?
    I thing thoses words are related.


    Look at Hebrew: alf, coorelated to alpha, and German elf

    alpha ist the first (letter), elf ist 10 + one left, the first left, alf (hebr.) ist the first of 1000 = one thounsand (i think)

    -----------

    There are some more word-souples I found in arabic-german.
    May be i write about them later.

    -----------


    So lets look if we'll find more and more possible related words betwenn German/English and Arabic/Hebrew
    To prove that two words are related you can't just point to that they sound similar and have the same meaning. Actually, words with the same origin seldom have exactly the same meaning, and very often have a completely different or opposite meaning, so emphasizing the likeness of meaning doesn't prove anything.
    The idea of a "great common original language" has been very popular by many people, and many theories have been created, for example of language called "Nostratic". So far it appears that this theory neither can be proved or disproved because of scarcity of evidence.
     

    garipx

    Member
    turkish
    Having read this thread, I can say that almost all posters here are trying (directly or indirectly) to say that "earth" comes from their own native languages.
    I'm not a linguist, but, as for one who has some academic discipline in other science field, I can also say that sometimes the less knowledge the more error-free view. Having also said this, now, back to topic.

    As someones wrote above, in Turkic languages (including rural Anatolian Turkish),

    earth = yir... (in different alphabets, it can also be written as jir/tir/etc.)

    In "town" Turkish, it is "yer".
    In "city" Turkish (I call it Ottomanish), it is "dünya" (which is a later added word to differentiate it with "yir/yer" because "yir/yer" was used for "ground" rather than the planet. I guess it is same for "zemin" which we also use, but, for "bottom ground".)

    So, lets take oldest known version of "earth" in Turkics, "yir/jir/tir/yer/etc." as these probably are linked to other "earth" versions.
    Note that usually first letters in Turkic languages are not pronounced or pronounced softly if it is not a vowel letter or a vowel is added to the beginning (eg. lemon/limon -> ilimon.)

    So, what is common in all these versions? It is "ir/er"... (maybe, there is also "ar", for ex, we use "yar" which means "lover", and also "cliff/hill."

    This "ir/er/ar" is also common in other languages; ear-th, er-de, er-d, er-etz, t-err-a, ... etc...

    (Iranians and Slavs who use versions of "zemin" should check their ancient dictionaries, there must exist a similar word in their languages for earth with "ir/er/ar". "Zemin" or similar words were probably being used for something else or were just added word later like Ottomans did by adding "dünya" for "planet".)

    So, which languages borrowed "ir/er/ar/etc" in "earth" from which languages? I guess it was long time ago when there was no IE, PIE, Uralic, Altaic, Semitic, etc at all. Note that neither of these versions "earth/erd/erde/eretz/er/yer/yir/tir/etc" meant "planet earth" long time ago, but, it meant "ground".
     
    Last edited:

    Testing1234567

    Senior Member
    Cantonese
    Looks like I'm late to this thread, which is a pointless discussion of pseudoscience anyway, consisting of people proposing relations between two words from two unrelated languages because of superficial similarity. Seriously? German and Arabic? Arabic borrowed from German? German borrowed from Arabic?

    ----

    Germanic

    English Earth /ɜːθ/ < /erθ/ < Middle English erthe /ˈerθǝ/ < /ˈørθǝ/ < Old English eorþe /ˈeorθe/ < Proto-Germanic *erþō /ˈer.θɔː/

    Regular sound changes from the Proto-Germanic form also gives rise to German Erde, confirming that it is not a borrowing.

    ----

    Semitic

    Arabic أَرْض /ʔardˤ/ < Proto-Semitic *ʾarṣ́- /ʔarɬʼ/ < Proto-Afro-Asiatic *ʔariĉ̣- /ʔariɬʼ/

    The sound change from Proto-Semitic to Arabic is regular and has produced cognates in other Semitic languages through regular sound changes, further attesting that the Arabic word is also not a borrowing.

    ----

    Italic

    Latin terra < Proto-Italic *terzā (rhotacism) < Proto-Indo-European *ters-o-

    The Proto-Italic word also produced Oscan teras.

    The word originally means dry.

    ----

    I will not entertain the Turkic words (yir etc.) by commenting on them.

    ----

    Anyone can find similarities in a set of words. However, not everyone can derive a productive rule from the correspondences in order to prove that those words are really related.

    ----

    Would anyone who has been following this thread be so kind as to summarize the questions asked in this thread which are still open?
     

    Testing1234567

    Senior Member
    Cantonese
    entertain
    /ɛntəˈteɪn/
    verb
    2.
    give attention or consideration to (an idea or feeling).
    "Washington entertained little hope of an early improvement in relations"
     

    garipx

    Member
    turkish
    I too know somethings else, for ex, E=M.C^2 ...

    (stay on topic.)

    Entertain with "Yir"... in Turkics, equivalent to "Earth"
     

    berndf

    Moderator
    German (Germany)
    Entertain with "Yir"... in Turkics, equivalent to "Earth"
    He obviously does not think that there is sufficient reason to suspect an etymological relation of Yir with either earth or with Semitic *ʾarṣ́.

    And I would agree. The consonant /r/ in all three is not sufficient a commonality.
     

    garipx

    Member
    turkish
    You "obviously" know what he does think? What I got from his this word "I will not entertain the Turkic words (yir etc.) by commenting on them." is that he probably has no idea, has no knowledge about "Yir" and he just tried to hide his illiterate about this by "entertain" instead of saying simply "I do not know" that is a must to be said by a person with an academic approach that he showed some sign of it when commenting on other forms of "earth".

    As for there is a relation of "Yir" with either "Earth" or "Arş" , etc:
    I didn't (try to) establish any relation, but, their sounds (pronounciations/phonetics) of "Yir/Yer/Jir/etc" and "Earth/Erd/Erde/Eretz/etc" are not far from each others even if they are not very close to each others. (consonants here "y/j/etc" in "yir/yer/jir/etc" are not emphasized when they are pronounced. So, you may hear them as if "ir/er/etc"

    "Ars" in Arabic maybe close to "Yar" in Turkic languages, which means "cliff/slope of hill" which is not a flat part of "Earth", but, still a part of earth.

    So, "ir/er/ar" are common in various forms of earth which are "yir/yer/yar/erd/erde/earth/ard/ars/etc" (exceptions like "zemin", I told about it above.)

    Lets not do a false generalization to all words in vocabularies with "r", but, still, it is clear that "r" is a potential commanility in all "earth" word forms including "gRound" and "earth" was not a word used for "planet", but, for "ground".
     
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