Etymology of "pohár"

[slado22]

Good afternoon everyone,

I was wondering about the etymology of the word "pohár" ( cup, goblet), common to different Slavic languages, to Romanian and to Hungarian (actually the form I have chosen for the title is the Hungarian one). In my opinion it could be a loan word from Lat. "buccalis" (related to the mouth) that eventually led to it. "boccale" (cup, goblet), for example. I can explain it phonetically (devoicing of labial plosive p->b, aspiration of guttural plosive c->h, confusion between liquid sonorants, and regular vocalic changes), but I cannot find in the internet where to confirm my hypothesis.
Does anyone have an etymological dictionary?
Thanks a lot for your help!!!!
(And yes, I am really bored )

 

[dudasd]

My dictionary says it comes from Old German "Becher", but doesn't go further into the past.

 

[OldAvatar]

I don't think it can be from Latin, since Romanian didn't keep a similar form of buccalis. Pokal (cup) could be the word that might have its origins in Latin buccalis, common to both Germanic and Slavic languages.

 

[dudasd]

Pokal/bokal is usually concerned to have its origin in Old Greek "boka" - mouth. Both words (pohár/pehar and pokal/bokal, together with Latin buccalis) may happen to be of the same root, I wouldn't be surprised (I am lazy to check), but the form pohár/pehar really sounds German.

 

[slado22]

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=1005258

I posted the thread in another forum! Look up what they found out...

Thanks a lot for your help anyway!

 

[Asgaard]

Hi,
I thought I should add a few thoughts.

* Old Avatar :"I don't think it can be from Latin, since Romanian didn't keep a similar form of buccalis." - How about ' im_bucatura ', imbuca - a pune in gura?

I have found a very similar word in Sumerian and Akkadian: PIHU - jar, a beer jar, PU = mouth.

Sanskrit - pehar.

Nice Day
Asgaard

 

[sokol]

Pokal/bokal is usually concerned to have its origin in Old Greek "boka" - mouth. Both words (pohár/pehar and pokal/bokal, together with Latin buccalis) may happen to be of the same root, I wouldn't be surprised (I am lazy to check), but the form pohár/pehar really sounds German.

Yes, there seems to be no doubt that 'pohár' is of German origin as posted on the other thread by Interfector linked by Slado22 - also the change of consonants and vocals are easily explained through this route:
- 'pohár' loaned from Hungarian which turned 'pehar' into 'pohar' because of the Hungarian vocal harmony
- Slovenian & Serbian 'pehar' loaned from German 'behhar' where the Slavs heard the (voiceless German 'b') as 'p'
So the original Romance word received its soundings through the filter of German, Slavic and Hungarian.

 

[Asgaard]

Hello,

Lucky Strike!

bahar [POTTER] (315x: ED IIIa, ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. bahar "potter" Akk. pahāru

BAHAR [POT] (1x: ED IIIa) wr. BAHAR2 "a pot"

 

[Frank06]

Hi,

bahar [POTTER] (315x: ED IIIa, ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. bahar "potter" Akk. pahāru
BAHAR [POT] (1x: ED IIIa) wr. BAHAR2 "a pot"

And how exactly does this fit into this discussion? Can you elaborate on this, I mean, can you explain a bit more than just giving an entry from a dictionary.
So far, there is nothing in your answer that does not suggest a lucky strike indeed.

Groetjes,

Frank

 

[Asgaard]

Yes, there seems to be no doubt that 'pohár' is of German origin as posted on the other thread by Interfector linked by Slado22 - also the change of consonants and vocals are easily explained through this route:
- 'pohár' loaned from Hungarian which turned 'pehar' into 'pohar' because of the Hungarian vocal harmony
- Slovenian & Serbian 'pehar' loaned from German 'behhar' where the Slavs heard the (voiceless German 'b') as 'p'
So the original Romance word received its soundings through the filter of German, Slavic and Hungarian.

I posted the Babylonian/ Akkadian word Bahar/Pahar to undermine the idea of a German origin. Romanian has the exact same word Pahar. Is this just another coincidence?

 

[Frank06]

Hi,

I posted the Babylonian/ Akkadian word Bahar/Pahar to undermine the idea of a German origin. Romanian has the exact same word Pahar. Is this just another coincidence?

That's up to you to explain whether it's a coincidence or not. 'Explain' means 'to give an explanation', 'elaborate, substantiate'...
Just posting a quote from a dictionary and then saying "See, it's the same word!' doesn't make sense at all and is one of the main features of most, if not all fringe linguists. So far, you have only undermind your credibility.
Please explain us how it would undermine the German origin? How did the Babylonian word end up (almost unchanged) in a few Slavic (and other) languages?

I want to refer to the rules of this forum, and especially #14:

Try to back up your explanations with sound arguments based on accepted methods used in mainstream linguistics.

Please.

Groetjes,

Frank

 

[OldAvatar]

Hi,
I thought I should add a few thoughts.

* Old Avatar :"I don't think it can be from Latin, since Romanian didn't keep a similar form of buccalis." - How about ' im_bucatura ', imbuca - a pune in gura?

When it comes to origin of these words, there is no a direct connection between Romanian pocal and îmbucare. While a îmbuca - îmbucare came straight from Latin (imbuccare), pocal came from German pokal, via Slavic languages.
See also Sokol's explanation, which I find it very reliable.
However, both words are a bit obsolete, especially pocal.