Etymology of Turkish "diğer"

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sawyar

New Member
English - US
It looks like a Persian form, obviouslyدیگر, but I can't find anything beyond that - cognates in Iranian languages, Proto-Iranic form, PIE root, etc.
 
  • Dib

    Senior Member
    Bengali (India)
    Not sure about the exact etymology, but Tolman compares it in his Old Persian dictionary with O.P. duvitīya (Skt. dvitīya-), "second". So, I guess, at least he takes the initial di- of digar to be related to PIE *dwo- (two). No idea about the -gar part.
     
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    fdb

    Senior Member
    French (France)
    dwitiya- “second” plus kara- “time” gives Middle Persian and Early New Persian duδīgar > dīgar.

    The best work about Iranian numbers is Emmerick’s chapter in Gvozdanovic (1991), Indo-European Numerals, here specifically p. 320.
     
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    fdb

    Senior Member
    French (France)
    It seems to be connected with Skt kāla- “time”, sakr̥t “once”, Ossetic kar “age”, Sogdian kryʼ “time, turn”. (Gershevitch, Gramm. of Manichaean Sogdian, section 1120). Also Old Persian hakr̥m "once", NP hargiz, hagriz < hakr̥-iča- “ever, always”.
     

    sawyar

    New Member
    English - US
    @fdb - Turkish has "kere" time/occasion "iki kere" (twice) "son kere" (last time) "bin kere" (a thousand times) - it looks very attractive as a loanword. Is it one? Where would it have come from?
     

    PersoLatin

    Senior Member
    UK
    Persian - Iran
    hakr̥m "once", NP hargiz, hagriz < hakr̥-iča- “ever, always”.
    I am assuming "hakr̥" of hakr̥m "once" and hakr̥-iča- “ever, always”, are the same and mean 'one time', if that's correct, what is /m/ on hakr̥m, is it an ordinal suffix?
     

    PersoLatin

    Senior Member
    UK
    Persian - Iran
    Thanks fdb.

    NP hargiz, hagriz < hakr̥-iča- “ever, always”.
    another question, is -iča- the same suffix which is at the end of هميشه/hamišé (always) & didn't hakr̥-iča-, like its NP counterpart, mean 'never' & 'ever' but not 'always'?
     

    fdb

    Senior Member
    French (France)
    In Middle Persian -iz is still a productive enclitic particle meaning “also”; in NP it survives only in fossilized forms like hargiz.

    In MP hagriz/hargiz occurs with a negative (“not one time” > “never”) or without a negative (“ever”). In NP it usually (always?) occurs with a negative.
     

    Treaty

    Senior Member
    Persian
    Isn't hamīše made by ham + mēšag where the latter part itself also meant "always" (so it is unrelated to iča)?
     

    CyrusSH

    Banned
    Persian - Iran
    Not sure about the exact etymology, but Tolman compares it in his Old Persian dictionary with O.P. duvitīya (Skt. dvitīya-), "second". So, I guess, at least he takes the initial di- of digar to be related to PIE *dwo- (two). No idea about the -gar part.
    "gar" means "expressing a choice between alternatives" (if, whether), "digar" can be compared to "magar" which means "but, other, unless".
     

    PersoLatin

    Senior Member
    UK
    Persian - Iran
    In Middle Persian -iz is still a productive enclitic particle meaning “also”; in NP it survives only in fossilized forms like hargiz.
    The NP نيز/niz means "also", isn't its final iz the same, if so, what does /n/ mean?
     
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    Radik Safin

    Banned
    Bashkir - Russian
    The NP نيز/niz means "also", isn't its final iz the same, if so, what does /n/ mean?
    Persian دیگر (digar) – other, another.

    Tajik "дигар" (digar) – other.

    ---------------------------------

    Turkish "diğer" – other.

    Azerbaijani "digər" – other.


    As the moderator says it's just similar words.
     

    Treaty

    Senior Member
    Persian
    Persian ... Tajik ... Turkish ... Azerbaijani
    They are not similar words but the same word. Persian and Tajik are the same language. Azerbaijani and Turkish borrowed it from Persian along with a few other thousand words during the last 1500 years when they were in contact with or present in Persophone lands.
     

    PersoLatin

    Senior Member
    UK
    Persian - Iran
    Who told you that?
    You obviously don't agree with contents of posts #2, 3, 6 above, you then must have a counter argument of similar quality & detail, that argues 'digar' is of Turkish origin & not a straight forward borrowing from Persian.
     
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    Radik Safin

    Banned
    Bashkir - Russian
    Here is another similar word. Russian «дикарь» (dikar) – a savage.

    Although perhaps the Tajik word comes from the Russian.

    https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Дикарь
    After all, your languages are related.

    You obviously don't agree with contents of posts #2, 3, 6 above, you then must have a counter argument of similar quality & detail, that argues 'digar' is of Turkish origin & not a straight forward borrowing from Persian.
    The clue is in the Azerbaijani word "digərgün" – 1. other, another; 2. changed, altered.
     

    Treaty

    Senior Member
    Persian
    Here is another similar word. Russian «дикарь» (dikar) – a savage.
    дикарь is an adjective constructed from the root ди́кии́ (free, wild) whose cognates are seemingly found across Slavic languages (which Russian belongs to). They are only distantly related to Persian/Tajik. Russian or any Slavic language wasn't in a position to loan to Persian/Tajik before 1700s, apart from their ethnonyms. Tajik is the same language as Persian with only a few differences in the choice of words and accent, and some recently borrowed words which doesn't include the millennia-old digar.
    The clue is in the Azerbaijani word "digərgün" – 1. other, another; 2. changed, altered.
    It's another Persian loanword. Persian gūn[e] means "feature" or "color". It is a common suffix found in many other Persian words meaning "like" (e.g., īn-gūne "this way", nīl-gūn "color of lapis lazuli", āb-gūn "like water", and of course dīgargūn or degargūn meaning "altered" which is attested in Persian long before there was something called Azerbaijani language). Cognates of gūn[e] have been attested in Indo-Iranian languages from 3000 years ago (Sanskrit guṇa).
     
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    PersoLatin

    Senior Member
    UK
    Persian - Iran
    The clue is in the Azerbaijani word "digərgün" – 1. other, another; 2. changed, altered.
    :)

    Not forgetting گوناگون which has developed from گونه ‌گون, also گندم گون, گل گون etc etc. Of course you would say gol/گل is Turkish too!
     
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