Expression of feeling + subjunctive

shamblesuk

shamblesuk

Senior Member
London
England, English
Ciao a tutti, potete aiutarmi?

Following on from the 'pronunciation of 'abbia' thread can I clarify the use of the subjunctive when following an expression of wish etc.

In the textbooks:

'Penso che (io) abbia capito' is listed as a way that is commonly used, whereas I'm now being told that if I am talking about myself in the 1st person I should use 'Penso di aver capito'. :confused: Is the 1st style wrong or just not used (widely or otherwise).

Would this also apply in cases such as:

'Credevo di aver imparato' is this right or would one use 'Credevo che (io) avessi imparato'?

Questi congiuntivi.........

Grazie in anticipo.

shamblesuk
 
    • shamblesuk said:
    I'm now being told that if I am talking about myself in the 1st person I should use 'Penso di aver capito'. :confused: Is the 1st style wrong or just not used (widely or otherwise).
    Click to expand...
    I think it's wrong.

    Penso che abbia capito = penso che lui/lei abbia capito (I think he/she understood)

    Penso che tu abbia capito (I think you understood)

    Penso d'aver capito/penso di avere capito (I think I understood)

    Good luck
     
    It's really quite simple. If the subjects of the two verbs are the same (I think I know / you think you know / he thinks he knows / etc...), Italian doesn't feel the need for the full subjunctive construct, di + infinitive is less cumbersome and is possible since there's no need to express another subject. After all, this is by far the most common occurrence so it's understandable that it got a shortcut. :rolleyes:

    So:
    I think I understood is Penso di aver capito
    I think you understood is Penso che (tu) abbia capito
    I think he/she understood     is Penso che (lui/lei) abbia capito

    He thinks I understood is Pensa che (io) abbia capito
    He thinks he understood     is Pensa di aver capito
    He thinks he     (a different 'he') understood is Pensa che (lui) abbia capito

    You can express the subject that I put in parentheses if the context is not sufficient to disambiguate who the subject of 'abbia capito' is, or if you want to stress it.

    In the case of your textbook, "Penso che abbia capito" is therefore either "Penso che (tu) abbia capito" or "Penso che (lui/lei) abbia capito". If it really does put the "(io)" in there, change textbook...

    Is this clear? Pensi di aver capito? :)
     
    Scrumpals said:
    what if i want to say "I think I understand"
    Si direbbe "Credo di capire" o e' ancora "credo di aver capito"?

    Steven
    Click to expand...
    Credo di capire = I think I understand
    Credo di aver capito = I think I understood
     
    Yes, that's the structure.
    Except that this specific verb, "to understand", is used just a tad differently in Italian than in English with respect to present/past.

    "I understand" can mean at least three things:

    1) I see / I can relate - "I can't go, I'm too afraid!" "I understand, that's fine."
    2) I know - "I understand full well how this works."
    3) I got it / I understood it - "Thanks for the explanation, I think I understand now!"

    In the first two cases, you can keep the present tense in Italian (although in the second case Italian tends to use the verb I know a lot)
    In the third case, where you're speaking about learning something and "I understand" has the meaning of "I understood (it)", Italian prefers to keep the past tense, because as a language it places the stress on the action of your having taken in something, rather than on the state of you now possessing that additional knowledge.

    Very subtle difference, but because of that, in this context Italians would be much more likely to say "Ho capito" and "Credo di aver capito".

    If, instead, you say "Credo di capire", in Italian it sounds more like #1 or #2 above, with possible examples such as: "Credo di capire perché non vuole venire", "Credo di capire come si sente", etc... ("I think I understand why s/he doesn't want to come", "I think I understand how s/he feels", etc...) - Of course, there are also cases in between: "I understand now!" could mean both "Now I see!" and "I got it now!", and depending on the situation you might want to translate it as "Ora capisco!" or "Ora ho capito!", but you get the point, I hope... :)

    So.... In general:

    I think I smurf --> Credo di puffare
    I think I smurfed --> Credo di aver(e) puffato

    But there are exceptions that depend on the different usage the two languages might make of some verbs...

    Cheers! :)
     
    Scrumpals said:
    Franx, molto chiaro - grazie.
    Comunque, sto cercando di capire che significa "smurf o puffare". non ho mai sentito queste due parole prima...
    Click to expand...
    I think it is a joke referring to The Smurfs, the cartoon show! In Italian they are I Puffi.:D
     
    Scrumpals said:
    Comunque, sto cercando di capire che significa "smurf o puffare". non ho mai sentito queste due parole prima...
    Click to expand...
    :) Yes, sorry, maybe I should have said it... Since "The Smurfs" (in Italian "I Puffi") use the verb "to smurf" (in Italian "puffare") in place of pretty much every other verb, I simply meant it as a funny placeholder for any verb whatsoever used in the present or in the past tense.... Sorry for the unorthodox example... ;)
     
    Non che e' per niente importante, ma perche gli italiani hanno cambiato il nome da "smurfs" (che significa niente) a "I Puffi"? Credo che durante gli anni ottanti, usavamo la parola "smurfed" nel senso " i screwed up" come "oops, i smurfed". Ma non si usa piu'.
     
    Scrumpals said:
    Non che sia per niente importante, ma perché gli italiani hanno cambiato il nome da "smurfs" (che significa niente) a "I Puffi"? Credo che durante gli anni ottanta, usassimo la parola "smurfed" nel senso " di screwed up" come "oops, i smurfed". Ma non si usa piu'.
    Click to expand...

    Almost every country changed the name to those creatures of Peyo, adapting it to something that somehow sounded the best in their own language (http://www.answers.com/topic/the-smurfs#wp-The_Smurfs_in_other_languages :) )
    The original name (and verb) is Schtroumpf, anyway, which has no meaning at all.
    In Italy we use "coso" (there is a thread dealing with this word, If I am not mistaken), yet for those characters a new word has been invented (maybe because also the original "schtroumpf" neither has any meaning nor is used in French to address an indefinite thingy thing).

    Uinni.
     
    Wow, wow, and WOW (c'e' una parola italiana per WOW)....
    Non ci posso credere! I Puffi furono dappertutto. Grazie Uinni - quanto conosci di questi Puffi? Forse' non io non voglia sapere...

    Steven
     
    Scrumpals said:
    Wow, wow, and WOW (c'e' una parola italiana per WOW)....
    Click to expand...
    It depends on the context, of course:
    Però! Accidenti! Perdinci! Perdiana! Accipicchia! Mamma mia! Capperi! Porcapaletta! (Che) Figata!:warn: Che figo!:warn: Cazzo!:warn: :warn:
    etc...


    Scrumpals said:
    Non ci posso credere! I Puffi furono dappertutto. Grazie Uinni - quanto conosci di questi Puffi? Forse' non io non voglia sapere...

    Steven
    Click to expand...

    I am afraid I cannot understand your usage of "furono" and "Forse' non io non voglia sapere"...

    Uinni
     
    Mi dispiace -
    i wanted to say:
    the smurfs were (furono) everywhere. and "maybe i don't want to know."
    insomma:
    "I dont believe it. The smurfs were everywhere. Thanks Uinni - how much do you know about the smurfs? Maybe I don't want to know.."

    E' piu' chiaro o no?

    steven
     
    Scrumpals said:
    Mi dispiace -
    i wanted to say:
    the smurfs were (furono) everywhere. and "maybe i don't want to know."
    insomma:
    "I dont believe it. The smurfs were everywhere. Thanks Uinni - how much do you know about the smurfs? Maybe I don't want to know.."

    E' piu' chiaro o no?

    steven
    Click to expand...
    Ok. So, the sentence that fits your eja... exclamation would be
    Chi l'avrebbe detto che i puffi fossero ovunque?! Quanto (ne) sai dei puffi? (Ma) Forse non voglio saperlo... -the last sentence means that you are afraid of the answer, of course :) .

    My teacher of Italian at "scuole medie" used to give us exercises where puffi were saying puffare everywhere and we had to fill in the dialogues with the proper verb :) )

    Uinni
     
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