Farsi Tenses - Haal Istamrari and Haal Kamil and the Aorist

Discussion in 'Indo-Iranian Languages' started by Shuaib, Feb 1, 2013.

  1. Shuaib New Member

    "Deccani Urdu"

    I just wanted to know the relevance of the Present Perfect Tense (I think Haal Kamil its called) in Farsi language. In what situations is its use more suitable than the use of the Present Continuous tense? For example, what is the difference between 'Man Rawanam' (I am going) and 'Man Rawandeh Am'?

    Also, what is meant by the Aorist tense and how is it different from the imperative? (Sir William Jones gives the imperative of 'Raftan' as 'Ro' and the aorist as 'Rawam'). What function does the aorist serve and what is the equivalent term for the aorist in Persian?
  2. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    If I were you, I would throw Sir William Jones' book in such a place that it is never to be seen again! With due respect to Sir William Jones of course. The book, IMHO, is not accurate in describing Persian tenses.

    The two tenses you have quoted, I don't believe you will hear native speakers use them at all. Sure, you will find their usage in Classical literature but even there, they are used in particular situations. My suggestion to you is to not worry about them at all.

    Now coming to the aorist tense.

    As you will no doubt know, present root of the verb "to go" is "rau" but when it is followed by an attachment, it becomes "rav".

    rav-am = maiN ja'uuN
    rav-iim = ham jaa'eN (In Classical language, it is "rav-em")

    rav-ii = tuu jaa'e
    rav-iid = tum jaa'o (In Classical Persian, "rav-ed"

    rav-ad = vuh jaa'e
    rav-and = vuh jaa'eN

    The suffix "bi" is usually added to these to give the "strengthened" aorist.

    bi-ravam/bi-raviim etc (One could translate these in Urdu as "maiN chalaa jaa'uuN/ham chale jaa'eN)

    Imperative is the "ordering" tense.

    bi-rau (usually pronounced "boro" in the modern language) = tuu jaa/tuu chalaa jaa
    bi-raviid = tum jaa'o/tum chale jaa'o

    Please note that Persian has no grammatical gender. There is a separate thread on the aorist. Please search for it as it might be of some help to you.
  3. Shuaib New Member

    "Deccani Urdu"

    Thanks for the reply, and I will look up the threads on the Aorist for further information.

    But my doubts regarding the two present tenses still persist - for example, how could I convey these two Urdu sentences in Farsi except with the help of those two tenses - 'Main Baitha Hoon' and 'Main Baith Raha Hoon'? Also, Mirza Mohammad Ibrahim also treats these two sentences as relevant.
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2013
  4. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    maiN baiThaa hu'aa huuN = man nishastah-am (In modern Persian, almost all words ending with this "he" are pronounced as "-e", so "nishaste-am")

    We normally would n't say "maiN baiTh rahaa huuN" but if we did..

    (man) mii-nishiin-am

    man ravandah-am = maiN jaane vaalaa huuN (ya3nii vuh shax huuN jo jaataa hai)
    man ravaan-am = maiN jaataa hu'aa huuN

    I shall quote some examples from Persian literature later.
  5. Shuaib New Member

    "Deccani Urdu"
    man ravandah-am = maiN jaane vaalaa huuN (ya3nii vuh shax huuN jo jaataa hai)
    man ravaan-am = maiN jaataa hu'aa huuN

    See, these are examples of conjugations that Mirza Mohammad Ibrahim gives under the headings 'Active or Substantive Participle' and 'Present Participle'. Maybe I mistranslated them as Present Perfect and Present Continuous. So are these two tenses not much in use? If so, what is used in place of them?
  6. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Shuaib SaaHib, these are not really tenses. One gives the agent and the other the present participle.

    joyindah yaabindah ast ( Shah Nama-i-Firdausi... DhuuNDne vaalaa paane vaalaa hai/jo DhuuNDtaa hai vuh paataa hai.. Please note, in our Indo-Persian, we normally pronounce this as "-indah" as in "aa'indah" but it is actually "-andah", as in "parandah"* uRne vaalaa (bird).

    yaar zindah suHbat baaqii (Here zindah is probably a contraction of the root "zii" from "ziistan" and "-andah". Here of course zindah = jiine vaalaa/jo jiitaa hai = alive)

    * Some more such words in Urdu..darindah, charindah,

    xudaa aafriinindah-i-maast (xudaa ham ko banaane vaalaa hai = xudaa maa raa aafriidah ast = xudaa ne hameN banaayaa hai.

    A construction, similar to the "-indah" form is the "-aa" form

    bah dil-i-daanaa, bah zabaan-i-goyaa, bah gosh-i-shinvaa, va chashm-i-biinaa

    jaan_ne vaale dil, bolne vaalii zabaan, sun_ne vaale kaan aur dekhne vaalii aaNkh ke saath

    avval-i-urdiibahisht maah-i-jalaalii
    bulbul-i-goyandah bar manaabir-i-qazbaaN

    (urdiibahisht, jo kih ek jalaalii mahiinah hai, us kii aamad aamad hai, gaane vaalii bulbuleN** TahaniyoN ke mimbaroN par (baiThii) haiN.

    ** Here "goyandah" seems to have the meaning of "gaatii hu'ii".

    pursaan pursaan miishavad raft taa chiin = puuchhte puuchhte insaan chiin pahuNch saktaa hai!

    uftaan-o-xezaan uu ba manzil-i-maqsuud rasiid = girtaa aur uThtaa vuh apnii manzil par pahuNch gayaa.

    I hope this has been of some help.
  7. Shuaib New Member

    "Deccani Urdu"
    I must say this has been very helpful. Thanks a lot for this information. Now I know what words ending with 'indah' would signify.
  8. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    You are most welcome Shuaib SaaHib. There are one or two errors in my post. urdiibihisht and shinavaa are two that I have noticed on second reading.

    Also "ba chashm i biinaa" etc should really be translated as "dekhne vaalii aaNkh se" and not "dekhne vaalii aaNkh ke saath".

    I am sure you will know that "darindah" is phaaRne vaalaa and "charindah" is charne vaalaa.

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