fascist Germany

  • scotu

    Senior Member
    Chicago English
    "Facism" and "nazi" are virtually synonymous.

    Nazi was the nickname for the National Socialist German Workers' party of Germany. This party controlled Germany from 1933.

    facism as defined by Robert O. Paxton is :
    "A form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation or victimhood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion." [Robert O. Paxton, "The Anatomy of Fascism," 2004]

     

    Juan Carlos Garling

    Senior Member
    Spanish Chile/Argentina
    lo siento, como se dice nazi Germany? no fascista
    En rigor, la palabra fascismo deriva de fascio, un conjunto de ramas atadas que simbolizaban la unión y la fuerza en la época del Imperio Romano. Acuñado ya en el siglo IX, el símbolo y el nombre fueron adoptados por Mussolini para denominar a su partido fascista. Por extensión se aplicó a otros regimenes autocráticos.

    Los alemanes acuñaron la abreviación nazi del término alemán Nationalsozialismus' = nacionalsocialismo, igualmente que sozi para los socialistas que rivalizaban con ellos por el poder. Nazi quedó incorporado al uso para referirse a la Alemania de Hitler, generalmente con intención derogativa. Es sin embargo incorrecto referirse a un ejército nazi (aunque era de uso corriente en la prensa) por cuanto el término debería limitarse al partido y su ideología y no a otras entidades que no lo eran necesariamente.
    'La Alemania nazi o nacionalsocialista'
    'La Italia fascista'
    'La España franquista'
    'La Rusia comunista'
    como referencia a los sistemas dominantes en una época.
     

    Jenesaisrien

    Senior Member
    Buenos Aires Castellano
    De acuerdo con Juan Carlos Garling y además los términos nazi y fascista no son sinónimos bajo ningún punto de vista. Tendrán obviamente sus puntos en común, pero también poseen grandes diferencias en sus presupuestos, fuentes ideológicas de las que se nutrieron, modo de llegada al poder, e incluso rol del Estado durante sus respectivos apogeos.
    El problema es que los términos políticos suelen utilizarse mal.
     

    scotu

    Senior Member
    Chicago English
    My use of the word "synonymous" has been commented on, and I agree with these comments and thank those who took the time to make them.

    While it is true that Nazis were fascists; it is also true that Fascism existed in places and times that had nothing to do with Nazis. Nazi was a political party and Fascism is a name for the system of government that this political party implemented. Saying that the two are synonymous is about as accurate as saying "Israelis" and "Jews" are synonymous.

    scotu
     

    Filis Cañí

    Banned
    Triana, caló
    Many people use the word fascist quite liberally, as in "Bush is a fascist". In that sense, I guess that you could say that the Nazis were fascists. Otherwise, saying that the Nazis were fascists is like saying that Republicans are Tories, or that Democrats are Socialists.
     

    Juan Carlos Garling

    Senior Member
    Spanish Chile/Argentina
    Many people use the word fascist quite liberally, as in "Bush is a fascist". In that sense, I guess that you could say that the Nazis were fascists. Otherwise, saying that the Nazis were fascists is like saying that Republicans are Tories, or that Democrats are Socialists.
    So it is in fact. It has become an umbrella term to denote a person or system that in your view is not democratic.
     

    scotu

    Senior Member
    Chicago English
    So it is in fact. It has become an umbrella term to denote a person or system that in your view is not democratic.
    I agree that that is how the concept would be understood today, but keep in mind that we have been in the context of Nazi, fascist Germany 75 years ago. As you know, the meaning of words frequently change over several generations.
     

    Juan Carlos Garling

    Senior Member
    Spanish Chile/Argentina
    I agree that that is how the concept would be understood today, but keep in mind that we have been in the context of Nazi, fascist Germany 75 years ago. As you know, the meaning of words frequently change over several generations.
    This is exactly what I meant, so we agree. We add attributes to certain words and semantics do the rest in the course of time.

    Same happens with barbarian, which we understand as uncivilized or bad-behaving. But in the days of the Roman Empire it was initially applied as the foreigners, those who are not like us, those living outside our borders.
     

    scotu

    Senior Member
    Chicago English
    This is exactly what I meant, so we agree. We add attributes to certain words and semantics do the rest in the course of time.

    Same happens with barbarian, which we understand as uncivilized or bad-behaving. But in the days of the Roman Empire it was initially applied as the foreigners, those who are not like us, those living outside our borders.
    Are not people who are not like us (foreigners) still uncivilized or bad-behaving just as they were in Roman times? ;) :D
     

    Jenesaisrien

    Senior Member
    Buenos Aires Castellano
    My use of the word "synonymous" has been commented on, and I agree with these comments and thank those who took the time to make them.

    While it is true that Nazis were fascists; it is also true that Fascism existed in places and times that had nothing to do with Nazis. Nazi was a political party and Fascism is a name for the system of government that this political party implemented. Saying that the two are synonymous is about as accurate as saying "Israelis" and "Jews" are synonymous.

    scotu
    Let me get this straight: Do you mean that Nazi Germany implemented "Fascism"?
     

    scotu

    Senior Member
    Chicago English
    Let me get this straight: Do you mean that Nazi Germany implemented "Fascism"?
    No, I mean that the German government in the 30's was a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing aggressive nationalism and racism. I think that such a system is usually called fascism.
     

    Jenesaisrien

    Senior Member
    Buenos Aires Castellano
    No, I mean that the German government in the 30's was a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing aggressive nationalism and racism. I think that such a system is usually called fascism.
    Scotu, I am afraid I have to disagree but this is no surprise since the scope of the word fascism is a very controversial subject in Political Science. The definition you provide is perhaps a little too vague, and if we go by it we have to conclude that the term fascism can be equally applied to an extremely heterogeneous scale of political regimes, from extreme right Hitler’s Germany or extreme left Pol Pot’s Cambodia to some decadent and harmless Third World populism, a rather unconvincing stance in my opinion.
    Some Anglo Saxon theorists tend to apply the “fascist” label to any regime that is not a liberal democracy or that has at some point been involved in a political conflict with a major Western liberal democracy.
    My point is that we are being benevolent to Nazism if we assimilate it to a fascist regime (not that fascism is any good either way).
    For example, fascism advocated nationalism but was not racist to the Nazi limits. The racist and Hegelian components of fascism were a mere pose. Some scholars like Hannah Arendt even made the somewhat controversial claim that fascism should not be categorized as a totalitarian regime(in spite of what Mussolini himself proclaimed) because the Italian state did not/could not control its citizens like Nazi Germany or Stalinist USSR. The same line of argument is applicable if we compare Nazism to other “fascist” regimes such as Spain under Franco or Portugal under Salazar (and again, scholars debate whether these regimes can be accurately considered as such)
    I could go on endlessly with my rant, lol, my point being basically that the word fascist doesn’t give you the whole picture about Nazism. Likewise, saying that Stalin implemented authoritarianism would not be an accurate description of that particular regime.
    Perhaps I’m way too obsessed about this since it is precisely my field, but I think that within this context generalizations are usually uncalled for and unfair, and that it doesn’t hurt anyone to try to refine our choice of words as it may eventually help us understand better the world we live in.
    However the very first thing I learnt when I started University was that los términos politicos son equívocos y multívocos so I guess we have to live with that and agree to disagree.:)
    And this is totally beyond the scope of this forum, sorry about that!
     
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