fermier receveur

Amityville

Senior Member
English UK
...une sorte d'adjudicataire qui se chargeait de percevoir les revenus et gardait la moitié.

Attached to a châtellenie.

I understand the meaning but struggling to find a decent English translation if any historically minded person has a bright idea ??:idea: :idea: or two ?
 
  • Amityville

    Senior Member
    English UK
    No takers ? Maybe it was hard to work out what the question was but I had my boss pestering me at the time, threatening to look over my shoulder and it was hard to concentrate.

    I was looking for a translation of fermier-receveur and have decided now to plump for tax-farmer.

    Châtellenie is tough - it is the seigneurie of a château and I'm going to circumlocute and say "castle with judicial and administrative powers."

    Merci bien, Amityville.
    Je t'en prie...est-ce que je peux t'appeler Ami ?
    Bien sûr, tu es libre ce soir, on se comprend....:)
    ............
     

    Kelly B

    Senior Member
    USA English
    Hi, Ami, does this have anything to do with anything? from Merriam Webster:
    Main Entry: cas·tel·lan
    Pronunciation: 'kas-t&-l&n
    Function: noun
    Etymology: Middle English castelleyn, from Old North French castelain, from Latin castellanus occupant of a castle, from castellanus of a castle, from castellum castle
    : a governor or warden of a castle or fort
     

    la grive solitaire

    Senior Member
    United States, English
    Hi Amity,

    It's a tough one! ;) I found translations for fermier général and receveur; I think that it's a type of feudal tax collector. Will that do? See what you think:

    “Mme Sanlot,” ... she married Etienne René Agnan Sanlot, fermier général (tax collector).http://members.aol.com/SteinCS/

    • Taxation
    The main tax was the taille a direct tax that excluded the nobility and other
    revenue generating services. The tax collectors (receveurs) issued notes to
    the government on a certain amount of tax to be collected from their
    administrative unit (pays d’élection). http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:9HSQad5CHoUJ:mauricio.econ.ubc.ca/531reports/20_SV.pdf+French+feudal++tax++collector&hl=en&ie=UTF-8
     

    Amityville

    Senior Member
    English UK
    Thankyou, Kelly and la grive, I am sorry it is a bit of a dry subject, but I 'did' castles at school and all this set bells a-jangling, the ideas were so familiar but the words were escaping me.
    It is one of those feudal arrangements where all land around the castle belongs to the châtelain who has control of all life therein, commerce, law, everything but a châtellenie must differ in some respect from a seigneurie too. I think "feudal tax collector" is exactly it, la grive, but I found a historical document where they were referred to as tax-farmers so thought that must be formula. I got the impression that the rôle evolved from being essentially agricultural, ie accepting tax in the form of produce, to being purely administrative.
    I have yet to follow your links, however......many thanks.
     

    alain larochelle

    Senior Member
    Québec, francophone
    hi, my Littré (1866! says the préface) says for châtellenie: Seigneurie et juridiction d'un seigneur châtelain, simply. As for fermier it is someone qui prend ou cède des droits, à ferme. À ferme, refers to a firm, fixed lease. The verb is affermer. "Affermer ne se dit que des biens ruraux, des impôts et des fournitures." Fermier only later extended to a cultivator-ownwer.


    I hope this helps someone find the english technical terms.
     

    Amityville

    Senior Member
    English UK
    Alain, I have never seen a Littré, though have seen it mentioned here a few times, a good sound and detalied reference book by the sound of it. My Larousse gives the same definition for châtellenie but it is completely absent from my French-English dictionary - they bottled out. Feudalism is such a well-known concept with its hierarchical structure made much of, that I thought it would be easy pickings to find a translation, or explanation by googling but no, very sparse results. Maybe local sources (library and people) would have been more productive than global virtual ones.
    I am a little bit reluctant to let go of the literal farming connection as agriculture was important and much was made of the fact that the chêtellenie had total control of the mills and was the centre for foires. Thankyou for your efforts in any case, that piece of information cannot have been easy to dig up. I will post back if local sources are enlightening.
     

    alain larochelle

    Senior Member
    Québec, francophone
    I only now had the idea that le Trésor de la Langue Française (on the web) would be be just as good as the Littré. Have a look, it's even more complete, and also ferme has an architectural meaning Littré did not mention.
     
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