Fokionos Negri

Renavere

Member
Lithuanian
Hello,
Could somebody please provide a word for word translation of Fokionos Negri (Street name in Athens)? Is Fokionos a name?
Thank you.
 
  • Renavere

    Member
    Lithuanian
    Thank you so much, you were very helpful by giving me the Wikipedia link. I'm doing a translation and need a footnote explaining the street name, and the information in Latin letters is very limited.
     

    Helleno File

    Senior Member
    English - UK
    As we've seen before street names are quite often slightly different from modern demotic Greek having been created in the nineteenth or earlier part of the 20th centuries and written in official katharevousa Greek. In this case it's a man's name. Presumably there were names that were declined in katharevousa as well as common nouns - ?? I note that Φοκίων -> Φοκίωνος is a different genitive form from that of masculine adjectives ending in -ων that become -οντος.
     

    διαφορετικός

    Senior Member
    Swiss German - Switzerland
    But you built it! It's indeed Φωκίωνος Νέγρη.
    Well, I just copied it from a street map. (I found it by searching for "Fokionos Negri", which is the term given in the original post.)

    I note that Φοκίων -> Φοκίωνος is a different genitive form from that of masculine adjectives ending in -ων that become -οντος.
    That's what I thought, too.

    P.S.:
    But the noun ενδιαφέρον is not writen with "-ων", but with "-ον". The adjective (or participle): ενδιαφέρων.
     
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    sotos

    Senior Member
    Greek
    I note that Φοκίων -> Φοκίωνος is a different genitive form from that of masculine adjectives ending in -ων that become -οντος.
    Yes. In other cases, Ευρυμέδων > Ευρυμέδοντος (also a street name). It has to do with the stem of the word. Suffix of nominative alone does not determine the genitive. But then, if you want to know the stem, you must know the genitive :)
     

    ioanell

    Senior Member
    Greek
    Greek street names usually contain genitives
    To my knowledge, and if I 'm not wrong, not usually but always Greek street (and square) names contain a genitive, a genitive of the name of a person (real or mythical), a historic site/event, a mountain, a river, an institution, etc. denoting that the street (or square) was given its name (as in all languages, I guess) in their honour [προς τιμήν τού …/τής …/τών …(in genitive case]. Αncient nominative Φωκίων, MoGr nominative Φωκίων and Φωκίωνας, ancient genitive τοῦ Φωκίωνος, MoGr genitive του Φωκίωνα, ancient and MoGr accusative τον Φωκίωνα, ancient vocative Φωκίων, MoGr vocative either Φωκίων or [demotic] Φωκίωνα.

    In general, active voice (masculine) participles of the present tense end in -ων/-οντος, such as γράφων/γράφοντος or (if the verbs are contracted) in - ῶν / ῶντος or -ῶν / οῦντος, e.g. ἀγαπῶν / ἀγαπῶντος, ποιῶν / ποιοῦντος, δηλῶν / δηλοῦντος. A certain category of masculine names of the third declension are declined as Πλάτων / Πλάτωνος, Φαίδων / Φαίδωνος, Ζήνων / Ζήνωνος, but there are some of them ending like the (contracted in - ῶν / ῶντος ) participles, such as Ξενοφῶν / Ξενοφῶντος, Ἀντιφῶν / Ἀντιφῶντος. As Sotos correctly says “Suffix of nominative alone does not determine the genitive”; the specific example Ευρυμέδων > Ευρυμέδ-οντος is a compound name of the adjective εὐρύς and the participle μέδων / μέδοντος [< verb μέδω=protect, rule over], hence Ευρυμέδ-οντος.

    Note: the only exception, as far as I know, where genitive is not needed is the (Roman) Εγνατία Οδός in Thessaloniki, where the name Εγνατία (from Latin: Via Egnatia) defines the noun Οδός as an “adjective” and one shouldn’t say, e.g. “στην οδό Εγνατίας αριθ. 35 [a very common mistake, due to the usual genitive]” but “στην οδό Εγνατία αριθ. 35”. In recent decades the same adjectival use applies to the names of motorways, such as “η Εγνατία Οδός” “της Εγνατίας Οδού”, “η Ιονία Οδός” “της Ιονίας Οδού”, etc.

    the possible meaning of the name of the man
    The name Φωκίων (also the name of a famous Ancient Athenian general and politician, after whom several streets in cities across Greece have been named) comes from the name of the mythical hero Φώκος, who gave his name to the Greek prefecture of Φωκίς / Φωκίδα.

    But the noun ενδιαφέρον is not writen with "-ων", but with "-ον".
    The noun ενδιαφέρον is a nominalized neuter participle of the verb ἐνδιαφέρω (ὁ ἐνδιαφέρων, ἡ ενδιαφέρουσα, τὸ ἐνδιαφέρον), hence the ending “-ον”.
     
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    Renavere

    Member
    Lithuanian
    Thank you all so much. There's a lot to consider for me, doing a translation of the novel Those Who are Loved by Victoria Hislop. She gives lots of Greek (spelt in Latin) street names, and because in my language (Lthuanian) genitive inflections are also added, I'm afraid to add two inflections.

    I also would like to ask, (or should I maybe start a separate thread for a new topic – if yes, I will do it) about the Patission Avenue in Athens. Having considered what you said about inflections, am I right in thinking that Patission is a genitive form of Patissia?
     

    Αγγελος

    Senior Member
    Greek
    Having considered what you said about inflections, am I right in thinking that Patission is a genitive form of Patissia?
    Absolutely. Πατήσια is a neighborhood of Athens, just north of Κυψέλη, which is the neighborhood around Φωκίωνος Νέγρη.

    You might wish to know that Φωκίωνος Νέγρη used to be a torrent and that it was covered and turned into a broad, tree-lined avenue in the late 1930's. In the 1950's and 1960's it was full of cafés and restaurants (Select and Oriental were two famous pasty shops); it was a place housewives would go to for coffee and cake and take their children out to play on the grass, but it also had a very lively and inevitably somewhat shady night life. It is still crowded on summer evenings, even though it has gone down in recent decades.
     

    Renavere

    Member
    Lithuanian
    Absolutely. Πατήσια is a neighborhood of Athens, just north of Κυψέλη, which is the neighborhood around Φωκίωνος Νέγρη.

    You might wish to know that Φωκίωνος Νέγρη used to be a torrent and that it was covered and turned into a broad, tree-lined avenue in the late 1930's. In the 1950's and 1960's it was full of cafés and restaurants (Select and Oriental were two famous pasty shops); it was a place housewives would go to for coffee and cake and take their children out to play on the grass, but it also had a very lively and inevitably somewhat shady night life. It is still crowded on summer evenings, even though it has gone down in recent decades.
    Thank you. In the book I'm translating the author writes about the street. Interesting to know and great thing to be able to consult REAL Greeks :)
     

    ioanell

    Senior Member
    Greek
    Interesting to know and great thing to be able to consult REAL Greeks :)
    After your reaction, are the rest who contributed to your query to assume that, although you used plural, by "REAL Greeks" you meant just a specific person?
     

    διαφορετικός

    Senior Member
    Swiss German - Switzerland
    A certain category of masculine names of the third declension are declined as Πλάτων / Πλάτωνος, Φαίδων / Φαίδωνος, Ζήνων / Ζήνωνος, but there are some of them ending like the (contracted in - ῶν / ῶντος ) participles, such as Ξενοφῶν / Ξενοφῶντος, Ἀντιφῶν / Ἀντιφῶντος. As Sotos correctly says “Suffix of nominative alone does not determine the genitive”; the specific example Ευρυμέδων > Ευρυμέδ-οντος is a compound name of the adjective εὐρύς and the participle μέδων / μέδοντος [< verb μέδω=protect, rule over], hence Ευρυμέδ-οντος.
    Is it true that in modern Greek the singular nominative ending "-ων" and the singular genitive ending "-ωνος" together for one single word occur only with masculine first names ("forenames", "Christian names", "given names")? Or can anybody think of a counterexample? (I guess that even the ending "-ων" alone for nominative singular does not exist except for participles like ενδιαφέρων - and for those given names.)
     

    Αγγελος

    Senior Member
    Greek
    Is it true that in modern Greek the singular nominative ending "-ων" and the singular genitive ending "-ωνος" together for one single word occur only with masculine first names ("forenames", "Christian names", "given names")? Or can anybody think of a counterexample? (I guess that even the ending "-ων" alone for nominative singular does not exist except for participles like ενδιαφέρων - and for those given names.)
    Not really. We often say σου είμαι ευγνώμων, and everybody knows the movie Ο Χιτών (The Tunic) or ascribes misprints to the δαίμων του τυπογραφείου. Of course, if we want to refer to just any tunic or demon, we will normally say ο χιτώνας or δαίμονας.

    What happens is that most third-declension nouns in -ων of ancient Greek, to the extent that they are still used, have switched to the first declension: δαίμονας, χιτώνας, just like χειμώνας (ancient χειμών) or καύσωνας (ancient καύσων). Proper nouns, however, are still used in their ancient form, both to refer to ancient Greeks (Plato will more often be referred to as Πλάτων than as Πλάτωνας, though the genitive is more likely to be του Πλάτωνα than του Πλάτωνος) and to their modern namesakes (Πλάτων is not an uncommon first name, as is Λέων, and even Βύρων, from Lord Byron, who to Greeks is something of a secular saint). Likewise, adjectives in -ων (of which there are not very many, but ευγνώμων, ισχυρογνώμων, βασιλόφρων, εθνικόφρων, αβρόφρων... can still be heard) are usually not adapted. Finally, in addition to actual participles in -ων (ο διδάσκων, ο επιζών, ο αιτών, το κυβερνών κόμμα...), which, if used at all, are always used in their ancient form, there are nouns and adjectives, such as παράγων, διάττων (=shooting star), δέων/δέουσα/δέον, προσήκων and the already mentioned ενδιαφέρων, which were originally participles and, though not perceived as such, are still used in their ancient form.
    Admittedly, not a very clear explanation, but this is one of many points in modern Greek where the complex interplay between ancient grammar (mediated through καθαρεύουσα) and that of demotic Greek results in confusion and hesitation, not only for the foreign learner but for the native speakers as well :)
     
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    Αγγελος

    Senior Member
    Greek
    It should be added (though you probably know that) that there are a few neuter nouns in -ον, historically also mostly participles, that are always declined after the ancient pattern, notably ον, παρόν, παρελθόν, μέλλον, ιόν, προϊόν, καθήκον...
     

    ioanell

    Senior Member
    Greek
    Some more information, almost strictly answering the questions.
    Is it true that in modern Greek the singular nominative ending "-ων" and the singular genitive ending "-ωνος" together for one single word occur only with masculine first names ("forenames", "Christian names", "given names")?
    Yes, the specific endings in nominative and genitive occur only with masculine proper names, proper names which were passed down from AG into MoGr. Some more names also used in MoGr, apart from the afomentioned Φωκίων, Πλάτων, Φαίδων, Ζήνων in # 11 above, (some of them toponyms or names of sports clubs) are the following : [rather katharevousa-style] Αγάθων/Αγάθωνος [demotic form] Αγάθωνας/Αγάθωνα [and so on with the rest], Απόλλων/Απόλλωνος, Αρίων/Αρίωνος, Ίων/Ίωνος, Κίμων/Κίμωνος, Μαραθών/Μαραθώνος, Πλαταμών/Πλαταμώνος. There are also proper names in -ων/-ονος, coming down from AG, such as (persons) Αγαμέμνων/Αγαμέμνονος [demotic form] Αγαμέμνονας/Αγαμέμνονα [and so on with the rest], Ιάσων/Ιάσονος, Φιλήμων/Φιλήμονος, (rivers) Αλιάκμων/Αλιάκμονος, Στρυμών/Στρυμόνος, (ethnonyms) Μακεδών/Μακεδόνος, Μυρμιδών/Μυρμιδόνος (mentioned in history/literature/mythology).

    I guess that even the ending "-ων" alone for nominative singular does not exist
    Always speaking about MoGr, there’s a good number of adjectives with a common ending -ων in nominative and -ονος in genitive for both genders, masculine and feminine, such as ο/η μείζων, του/της μείζονος [and so on with the rest], ο/η ειδήμων, ο/η ελεήμων, ο/η νοήμων, ο/η πολυπράγμων, ο/η σώφρων, etc.; there are also some other, more katharevousa-style, common masculine nouns (not proper names), ending in -ων, -ωνος, such as πύθων/πύθωνος [demotic πύθωνας/πύθωνα], πώγων/πώγωνος, others ending in -ων, -οντος, such as λέων/λέοντος, [also proper name] Λέων/Λέοντος and finally the active voice present tense masculine participles ending in -ων, -οντος, such as λήγων [μήνας]/λήγοντος, επείγων [χαρακτήρας]/επείγοντος, διευθύνων [σύμβουλος] /διευθύνοντος, etc., or in –ών, -ώντος, such as κυβερνών [συνασπισμός or (neuter) κόμμα]/κυβερνώντος.

    Note that the MoGr demotic nominative of the ancient third declension nouns emerged in the time of Koine Greek from the ancient accusative with the addition of a final -ς, that is e.g. acc. [τὸν] Πλάτωνα + ς > nom. [ο] Πλάτωνας; accordingly the genitive, in place of the ancient genitive τοῦ Πλάτωνος, became του Πλάτωνα without a final -ς; this was the process which proved catalytic for the formation of a vast number of modern Greek nouns, abolishing in practice the most part of the AG third declension in MoGr.




     
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