, for Henry and <I/me> do not like her.

tracker890

Senior Member
Chinese
Dear Everyone:
Sentence:Tom does not like Helen, for Henry and ___ do not like her.
(1) I
(2) me

Q:
I think the word "for" is prep., so I choice "Henry and _me_" for answer,
but the Grammar say the word "for" is conj. not prep., so correct answer is "I".

So please help me to understand why the word "for" is conj. not prep.

My analysis:
upload_2019-4-3_23-22-50.png

upload_2019-4-3_23-29-4.png


Thank you for your time and consideration.
 
Last edited:
  • SevenDays

    Senior Member
    Spanish
    Dear Everyone:
    Sentence:Tom does not like Helen, for Henry and ___ do not like her.
    (1) I
    (2) me

    Q:
    I think the word "for" is prep., so I choice "Henry and _me_" for answer,
    but the Grammar say the word "for" is conj. not prep., so correct answer is "I".

    So please help me to understand why the word "for" is conj. not prep.

    My analysis:
    View attachment 29347
    View attachment 29348

    Thank you for your time and consideration.
    The correct answer is that there is no correct answer. The subject of "do not like" is neither me nor I. The subject of "do not like" is a coordination of two elements/noun phrases:

    [noun phrase] and [noun phrase] do not like her.

    If you use a pronoun, it would be "they" because the coordination of two noun phrases gives us plurality: for they do not like her. But the fact that we use nominative "they" doesn't mean that we should use nominative "I." Again, "I" (or "me") is not the subject of the verb.

    So, which pronoun should you use, "me" or "I"? That's up to you; it's a stylistic choice (not a grammatical choice). Now, if you are taking a class, or if you are studying for a test, use the pronoun that your textbook/teacher wants you to use (because you want to get a good grade).
     

    Edinburgher

    Senior Member
    German/English bilingual
    the fact that we use nominative "they" doesn't mean that we should use nominative "I."
    Why not? The subject of the verb is "Henry and X", where X represents the speaker. Since "Henry and X" is in the subject role, both Henry and X need to be nominative. "Me" is generally considered incorrect in a subject role, even when it appears as part of a double subject. A child might say "Me and my friend went to play football.", but they're expected to grow out of it.
     

    tracker890

    Senior Member
    Chinese
    The correct answer is that there is no correct answer. The subject of "do not like" is neither me nor I. The subject of "do not like" is a coordination of two elements/noun phrases:

    [noun phrase] and [noun phrase] do not like her.

    If you use a pronoun, it would be "they" because the coordination of two noun phrases gives us plurality: for they do not like her. But the fact that we use nominative "they" doesn't mean that we should use nominative "I." Again, "I" (or "me") is not the subject of the verb.

    So, which pronoun should you use, "me" or "I"? That's up to you; it's a stylistic choice (not a grammatical choice). Now, if you are taking a class, or if you are studying for a test, use the pronoun that your textbook/teacher wants you to use (because you want to get a good grade).
    clear! thank you! :):thumbsup:
     

    dojibear

    Senior Member
    English - Northeast US
    I think the word "for" is prep., so I choice "Henry and _me_" for answer,
    but the Grammar say the word "for" is conj. not prep., so correct answer is "I".

    So please help me to understand why the word "for" is conj. not prep.
    A prepositional phrase includes a preposition and a noun, but does not include a verb.

    "For Henry and I" can be a prepositional phrase.

    "For Henry and I like her" cannot be a prepositional phrase.
     

    Hermione Golightly

    Senior Member
    British English
    'For' as a preposition makes no sense. It should be 'because', because surely that's the word most often used. It wouldn't surprise me if I never use conjunction 'for' in speech and I can't think why I would choose it in writing unless, say, I was trying to imitate 16th century English.
    If we chose " ... because neither Henry nor I like him" there'd be no doubt about needing 'I' not 'me', I suppose.
     

    tracker890

    Senior Member
    Chinese
    'For' as a preposition makes no sense. It should be 'because', because surely that's the word most often used. It wouldn't surprise me if I never use conjunction 'for' in speech and I can't think why I would choose it in writing unless, say, I was trying to imitate 16th century English.
    If we chose " ... because neither Henry nor I like him" there'd be no doubt about needing 'I' not 'me', I suppose.
    thank you! :)
     

    SevenDays

    Senior Member
    Spanish
    Why not? The subject of the verb is "Henry and X", where X represents the speaker. Since "Henry and X" is in the subject role, both Henry and X need to be nominative. "Me" is generally considered incorrect in a subject role, even when it appears as part of a double subject. A child might say "Me and my friend went to play football.", but they're expected to grow out of it.
    All I'm pointing out is that the subject of the verb is a plural noun phrase, which can be represented like this:

    for [plural noun phrase] [don't like her]

    What happens inside the noun phrase is irrelevant when it comes to agreement with the verb, because it is the noun phrase as a whole as that enters into agreement with the verb. And so saying that the pronoun should be "I" (Henry and I don't like like) is tradition, style, but not syntax. Some go as far as saying that "I" is an hyper correction, or correcting something that in (syntactic) reality doesn't need correcting.

    Similarly, the expectation that a child will one day stop saying "Me and my friend went to play football" is a societal expectation, not a grammatical expectation. By tradition, politeness, etiquette, etc., we don't start a sentence with "me;" then again, adults will break from that tradition whenever they see fit.
     

    pob14

    Senior Member
    American English
    What I was taught is to eliminate the other noun; you wouldn’t say “me do not like her,” so you don’t say “”Henry and me do not like her.”
     

    Edinburgher

    Senior Member
    German/English bilingual
    What happens inside the noun phrase is irrelevant when it comes to agreement with the verb, because it is the noun phrase as a whole as that enters into agreement with the verb.
    I don't see how it can be irrelevant. Besides, this is not about "agreement with the verb" (which it would be if we were talking about whether the verb should be singular or plural), it is about the noun phrase (as a whole, if you like) requiring to be in the nominative because of its position in the sentence structure (in this case because it happens to be the subject of a verb). How do you make a plural noun phrase nominative, when that phrase consists of two or more singular noun phrases joined by "and", other than by making each of its singular components nominative?
     

    SevenDays

    Senior Member
    Spanish
    I don't see how it can be irrelevant. Besides, this is not about "agreement with the verb" (which it would be if we were talking about whether the verb should be singular or plural), it is about the noun phrase (as a whole, if you like) requiring to be in the nominative because of its position in the sentence structure (in this case because it happens to be the subject of a verb). How do you make a plural noun phrase nominative, when that phrase consists of two or more singular noun phrases joined by "and", other than by making each of its singular components nominative?
    The plural noun phrase in question (Henry and me/I) is not a clause, in the sense that there's no verb within the boundaries of the noun phrase, and if there's no verb, why should one be required to use a nominative pronoun to represent "Henry" and "the speaker"? In the sentence, there's one verb (like, with negation: don't like), and it is that verb which agrees with the plurality of the noun phrase. Accordingly, if a pronoun is to be used (in representation of the plural noun phrase), it must be "We:" Henry and me/I don't like her ~ We don't like her. We don't say "Us don't like her" because there's no complementizer to license an object pronoun (as the complementizer "for ... to" does in For us to like her). By the way, the traditional approach of eliminating the other pronoun is really a sleight of hand; the sentence is not I don't like her, nor he doesn't like her; it's We don't like her.

    As I said earlier, you've got choices (Henry and me, Henry and I, He and I), none of which is attributed to syntax. In fact, syntax is neutral on this; It's us who introduce our own prejudices into the construction.
     

    Edinburgher

    Senior Member
    German/English bilingual
    why should one be required to use a nominative pronoun to represent "Henry" and "the speaker"? In the sentence, there's one verb (like, with negation: don't like), and it is that verb which agrees with the plurality of the noun phrase.
    Neither of those are at issue here. We are not discussing using a single pronoun to represent both elements of the plural noun phrase (if we were, then of course, if it makes sense to represent that noun phrase by a first person pronoun, then it would indeed be either we or us, depending on whether the context requires subjective or objective case), nor are we discussing plurality agreement of the subject with the verb.

    What is at issue is, where we have a plural noun phrase in which one of the components happens to be a singular pronoun, whether the grammatical case (subjective or objective) of that singular pronoun should be that which context requires of the entire noun phrase as a whole. My answer to that, and I am clearly not alone, is an emphatic yes.

    In other words, where the noun phrase occurs in a context where it is the subject of a verb, the case of the noun phrase must be subjective (nominative), and so must each of its singular constituents be. Of course the case of a constituent happens to be invisible when it is a plain noun or a proper name; it's only visible when it's a pronoun. The reason we don't say "Us went to the beach" is because the verb went requires a subject, and that requires to be in the subjective case, i.e. We, not Us. In my view the case requirement trickles down to the constituents of compound nouns, so we becomes "Henry and I", not "Henry and me", and us becomes "Henry and me", not "Henry and I".

    The plural noun phrase can sometimes contain several singular pronouns (instead of a name and one pronoun). Then we don't say "Her and him went to the gym", but "He and she went to the gym". Similarly, we don't say "I went to the beach with he and she", but "I went to the beach with him and her".
     
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